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Old 12-06-2010, 03:09 PM   #41
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i blame his drag queen boyfriend.
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Old 12-06-2010, 03:25 PM   #42
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Manning was gay also? A gay traitor.. ****, thats sooo gay
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Old 12-06-2010, 03:28 PM   #43
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hence post #30.
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Old 12-06-2010, 05:53 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shuiend View Post
You do know that not a single person has been confirmed hurt by the Pentagon because of any of the leaks so far? It has always been that it could possibly cause someone to be hurt.
This is similar to when the pot smoker defends his actions saying it is a victimless crime, too, but it isn't. Just because you don't know the names of those harmed, doesn't mean they don't exist or won't be harmed.
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Originally Posted by KPLAFIN View Post
Publishing leaked classified documents /= freedom of the press. There is a line that has to be drawn, clearly CLASSIFIED documents are over that line... It's kind of like the whole ILLEGAL aliens/immigrants argument, yea they're people...blah blah blah...what part of ******* ILLEGAL isn't clear? Arrest them and throw them back across the border, catch them again, shoot em, too easy.
^This.
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Originally Posted by shuiend View Post
Firstly Wikileaks is not leaking the documents, they are simply publishing what was given to them. Bradley Manning is the guy who "supposedly" stole the initial documents and is in custody. He is the person you have to be mad at, not Wikileaks.
If you buy a television from the punk neighbor kid who stole it from a house down the street it is a crime, yes? Even if you didn't steal it yourself? These laws exist for a reason, to protect property, physical property and intellectual property. When documents are the property of the United States government, they are just that.
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Originally Posted by shuiend View Post
Secondly the case Times v. United States decided by the supreme court that "the need for a free press as a check on government prevents any governmental restraint on the press." So yes press, in this case wikileaks, is allowed to do what they are doing.
Wikileaks is not protected under the United States' constitution because it is not American. Secondly, they are not journalists, but combatants fighting with every resource they posses against our country in a time of war. Again, if they had the means to inflict greater harm on America they would do that as well. I don't understand the compassion for them.
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sixshooter, every argument i've seen you write looks well-reasoned, but i'm still puzzling over this one. operatives sure i agree. but in the larger context i don't see how its cut-and-dry, for the reasons outlined by mcnamara himself in the fog of war. maybe its the subject itself which lends itself to hyperbole.
I'm not a McNamara fan. He orchestrated the deaths of many fine American men by playing political games with their lives for political gain. McNamara always saw the world in shades of gray. When you are lying in the mud trying to hold your guts in your wounded belly so they don't spill out on the ground, there isn't much gray, and McNamara never personally faced the scenarios he created for our young men in Vietnam.

But, on topic, when a foreigner deliberately acquires sensitive secret intelligence and attempts to use it to cause the maximum possible damage to America, what do you call it? If it causes one secret operative's imprisonment, one man's execution, one soldier to lose his legs to an emboldened enemy, compromises one platoon's safety, one infantry division's security, one country's political upper hand in an important negotiation, or more importantly one country's bluff to be called, how important is it? How large does the larger context have to be for wrong to be considered wrong? Wrong is wrong, and we won't know for years, maybe decades what the far reaching ramifications might be.

Some of the information might very well seem innocuous to us, but might point directly to a covert source as the only place that the information could have originated.

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Originally Posted by KPLAFIN View Post
You can't honestly sit there and think that wikileaks is innocent just because they "only posted what was given to them" that is the most asinine comment I've read on this site in a long time, I'm done in this thread. [b]Wikileaks is putting information out there that COULD (yes COULD, not HAS, but COULD and that is good enough for me) put innocent AMERICAN lives at risk.[b] I'm in the military, I'm going to Afghanistan soon, we have it hard enough without idiots doing **** to make it worse. They're traitors and should be dealt with as such. Firing squad or the gallows, I don't care, but deal with it one way or another already.
When the intent of a foreign enemy is to harm Americans and our servicemen and women it should be dealt with harshly.
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Could you please show me where congress has voted on an act of war? As far as I know, congress has not voted on an Act of War since WW2.
Really? I mean, really? I was going to post clips of Obama and Bush using the word "war" to describe what is going on but what's the point...
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Originally Posted by shuiend View Post
Also please show me where exactly the Pentagon has said that one of our operatives has actually been harmed by what has been published so far? As far as I have seen not a single person has been confirmed to be harmed. It is all speculation that they "could" or "might" be harmed.
You are right. We should wait for Americans to be killed before we start taking foreign terrorists seriously when they threaten us. What's your name, Bill Clinton? Then we should wait some more just to make sure it wasn't an isolated incident or an accidental terrorist attack. Maybe a couple of additional terrorist acts will convince us.

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Originally Posted by shuiend View Post
Statistically you have a higher chance of being harmed in a car wreck then any operative being harmed by what has been leaked.
Really? So because 40,000 Americans (average annual death rate due to automobile accidents) have not died yet this year it isn't a real problem? Sounds like a healthy argument to me.

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Originally Posted by shuiend View Post
As Manning will be dealt with in a court of law if he is found guilty of leaking the papers.
Yes. A military court martial will hear his case.
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Originally Posted by shuiend View Post
Julian Assange can not be tried as a traitor because he is not a US citizen.
Yes.

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Originally Posted by shuiend View Post
I do think he is innocent. Freedom of the press means that they can print things that "could" cause harm. The Supreme Court has ruled that way and that is how it stands.
And just how do you suppose that you will apply the constitutionally guaranteed "freedom of the press" to a foreign national to whom such freedoms are not guaranteed? Australia (of which he is a citizen) has no such provision.
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Originally Posted by Rick View Post
whos to say we will ever hear of 1 person let alone maybe 20, 30 or 100.

Do we really need every informant and diplomat second guessing their efforts and or who they are talking with?

When some 3rd world country girl gets raped and killed and dragged through the streets cause her father is seen as a traitor, Julian Assange has the luxury of claiming he's just a journalist and his actions ultimately are NOT what killed anyone let alone some innocent girl.

Seeing that these leaks affect us, it is us that should be concerned.

I pay taxes to be on a winning team, not a losing team. If the Americans feels the need to spy, cheat and do things to preserve the way of life for American citizens I can for the most part live with that.

if I had to opt for my life vs theirs, nuking is an ok option. [b]The point is, every country has issues and or secrets.[b]

The person who stole the intel should die. He is a traitor and should get the firing squad. Hopefully you guys DO hang the person who leaked the documents by a rope from a tree, on a hill overshadowing the cities and villages as a reminder of what NOT to do.

Assange. 'Yea, ok, sure, I dont sell drugs but you can use my house to crack up the teens. Hey, comeon, im not the drug dealer.' Wiki / Assange is aiding an abetting a US citizen in a terrorist attack against the USA. Conspiracy doubles your time here in Canada, not sure about the USA.

Assange fool is not a US citizen. Perfect, treat him as a hostile entity and /end him. The US and Canada should never negotiate with a hostage taker. Kill him, kill the person who leaks the key and so on. Lives are put at risk.

The wiki fool has not only endangered American lives, but other citizens as well. He has affected diplomacy in a majorly negative way that will likely burn a lot of bridges....
^This.
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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
I also don't like that some foreigner who is hell bent on the destruction of the US facilitated the infiltration. The only reason Manning turned over the info is because he has daddy issues, not because he came across some data that was imperative that the public should see for itself.
^This also
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Old 12-06-2010, 06:02 PM   #45
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The recent leaks are rather inconsequential - they are about gossip in high places. The secrecy only benefits those in high places. The good thing about it is it makes the people see that these power elite people are gossippy just like the rest of us and don't deserve the power that they wield and the taxpayer money they're paid.

To those who think that "state secrets" are sacrosanct and "traitors" should be tried - your faith in government's benevolence is touching. And naive. Think of the State as the Enemy. The gov't is simply a means for the power and financial elite to extract wealth from the middle class. The empire is there for the benefit of the emperors. Only emperors want war anyway, and only send the fiefs to do the actual fighting; they convince the fiefs that fighting it is for their own benefit.

Anyway, the war against the State will be fought over the internet, with information, and not with bullets. Wikileaks is part of it.

Wikileaks BTW years ago exposed the Australian Government's plan to censor the internet, and published their list of "banned websites"; even publishing said list was a crime in Australia. They also published stuff on many other governments' internet censorship activities.
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Old 12-06-2010, 06:04 PM   #46
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I stopped taking these kind of topics serious on here. Some of your opinions are right on the money, while others should just shut the **** up. This of course, is my opinion. Thankfully I still have the right to have one! For now....
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Old 12-06-2010, 06:23 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
I'm not a McNamara fan. He orchestrated the deaths of many fine American men by playing political games with their lives for political gain. McNamara always saw the world in shades of gray. When you are lying in the mud trying to hold your guts in your wounded belly so they don't spill out on the ground, there isn't much gray, and McNamara never personally faced the scenarios he created for our young men in Vietnam.
100% yes, absolutely, well stated. the take-away for me is, never again should an individual such as McNamara be able to put our young men and women in harms way without an informed national discourse.

basically, if anybody is sent to fight a war on foreign soil, it had better be for a damn good reason. getting things out of the shadows so that it can be scrutinized by you and me is important to this end, imo. for this reason, i view the wikileaks semi-dirty-laundry a lot less harshly than you. (correct me if i'm misunderstanding u)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick
Wiki / Assange is aiding an abetting a US citizen in a terrorist attack against the USA
imo the hypocrisy exposed among the arab leaders alone makes it worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack
On one hand I don't like the idea of putting troops/citizens/diplomacy in harm but I also don't like the idea of them being deployed either (ie, I don't like stuff our Gov't does and think it SHOULD be more transparent)
ima with brain on that
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Old 12-06-2010, 06:57 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
The recent leaks are rather inconsequential - they are about gossip in high places. The secrecy only benefits those in high places. The good thing about it is it makes the people see that these power elite people are gossippy just like the rest of us and don't deserve the power that they wield and the taxpayer money they're paid.

To those who think that "state secrets" are sacrosanct and "traitors" should be tried - your faith in government's benevolence is touching. And naive. Think of the State as the Enemy. The gov't is simply a means for the power and financial elite to extract wealth from the middle class. The empire is there for the benefit of the emperors. Only emperors want war anyway, and only send the fiefs to do the actual fighting; they convince the fiefs that fighting it is for their own benefit.

Anyway, the war against the State will be fought over the internet, with information, and not with bullets. Wikileaks is part of it.

Wikileaks BTW years ago exposed the Australian Government's plan to censor the internet, and published their list of "banned websites"; even publishing said list was a crime in Australia. They also published stuff on many other governments' internet censorship activities.
Interestingly enough, I agree with "The State" being the enemy of freedom, but also believe that it is ours to reign in. It is our dragon to fight and harness, but I will defend her vehemently against foreign aggression. I can have a fist fight with my brother, but you better not have a fist fight with my brother or I will fight with him against you.

Some of what you said sounds like you watch too many movies.

"The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it."

"The truth is out there."

"You can't stop the signal, Mal."
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Old 12-07-2010, 01:52 AM   #49
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lol, Brain, the only gay servicemen I know are fellow intelligence soldiers..

And of course, I can't view it either, not that I need to.

Bradley Manning should be made an example of. No light treatment, it was his dumbass "whistleblowing" that put Wikileaks on the map, and it's been getting worse ever since.

Part of me wants Wikileaks to go away (ad hellfireum), but I know something else would spring up in its place. We have to go after the leakers themselves. The maximum punishment for treason is death, and we need to nip this in the bud.
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Old 12-07-2010, 02:01 AM   #50
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Also please show me where exactly the Pentagon has said that one of our operatives has actually been harmed by what has been published so far? As far as I have seen not a single person has been confirmed to be harmed. It is all speculation that they "could" or "might" be harmed.

Statistically you have a higher chance of being harmed in a car wreck then any operative being harmed by what has been leaked.
Easy to say from relative safety.

Firstly, and this is obvious, no enemy action is likely to be immediately traceable to the leaks. If people are harmed, we'll likely never know if they would have been spared had the leaks never happened. It's not like our enemies come out and tell us how they got the info or what info they used to attack us...

Statistics? Come over here and say that bullshit.
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Old 12-07-2010, 03:25 AM   #51
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Statistics? Come over here and say anything that you have been saying on the subject, let alone that bullshit
FTFY, and +10000
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Old 12-07-2010, 06:53 AM   #52
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Woot woot...Assange arrested in the UK and has multiple rape/molestation charges pending in Sweden as well. Hang his *** high for the world to see him for what he is.
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Old 12-07-2010, 09:28 AM   #53
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You Gung-ho patriots scare me. Don't you know that to question your gov't is to be patriotic?

Granted, like I said, I don't like how this info came to be, but are you suggesting that in any case, no matter what incredibly awful information comes out about atrocities our gov't commits and the need for the public to know and stop it, you want the whistle blower dead?

What if somewhere in those documents they found that Bill Clinton planned the 9/11 attacks?
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Old 12-07-2010, 09:37 AM   #54
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What if somewhere in those documents they found that Bill Clinton planned the 9/11 attacks?
You don't need to question the government, in fact you mustn't, or you are a terrorist. Hasn't the 9/11 taught you anything? If anything else, you need more PATRIOT acts.

Yup, giving up ALL of your rights will save you from the bad terrorists.
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Old 12-07-2010, 10:18 AM   #55
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is that why your last package to me got returned?
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Old 12-07-2010, 10:31 AM   #56
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Yeah, I'm betting the recipients of the last batch feel more secure already.
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Old 12-07-2010, 10:44 AM   #57
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Whats awesome is your gov't stopped a terrorist attack and you gave you back the detonators and refunded the money.
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Old 12-07-2010, 10:56 AM   #58
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Yeah, they are awesome!
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Old 12-07-2010, 10:57 AM   #59
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i mean it was pretty considerate of them.
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Old 12-07-2010, 11:17 AM   #60
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I try to not keep up with this too much. It's really being discussed too much. It's an illegal act, publishing stolen documents, property of the US government. Documents that were classified, and some probably for a good reason. Some of them being leaked could cause serious trouble. It is NOT freedom of press. End of story.
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