EPIC nuts/studs loosening thread (reposting stupid stuff without reading = warning) - Page 36 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 09-10-2009, 05:45 PM   #701
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If you want to try it your more then welcome. Its not like I didn't search the earth for this alloy, and I'm still only making a couple bucks off each set.

6.5~7.4uin your alloys
9.7~10.0uin my alloy.
Stainless 304 9.39-9.5uin

You also have to account for the fact that the bolts are colder then the flange. So your alloy doesn't expand as much, and its colder. My alloy out expands stainless steel while still giving exceptional high temperature strength. Inconel is the wrong choice.
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Old 09-10-2009, 05:47 PM   #702
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Corky does not think the Inconel Studs will hold up. He has another material on order (stronger than Inconel) that we are going to make studs out of. If it works, it will be MUCH cheaper (1/2 cost) of Inconel stuff. That said, I don't think it will hurt to try the Inconel. It has to be better than what you are using now. But there are enough people out there working on a solution that a wait and see approach might be best before jumping on the bandwagon and committing to something for a $100 a pop. That price is borderline ridiculous, IMO.
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Old 09-10-2009, 05:48 PM   #703
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Inconel is the wrong choice.
Do you even have the ability to test your product? At this point, all of this is conjecture. The problems we have, we shouldn't be having. You cannot say with aboslute confidence whether ANYTHING will work or not. There are also more than just a few different Inconel alloys; I've talked with an engineer at SM and I'm confident I have something that will work. Not confident enough to sell it without R&D, though.
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Old 09-10-2009, 05:50 PM   #704
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I value my time at the amount I make at my job. Given that, $100 is a drop in the bucket if I only have to install bolts once and never worry about them again until the end of time. If I knew that my turbo would last forever and never die, I would just weld that bitch right onto my manifold.
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Old 09-10-2009, 05:54 PM   #705
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Do you even have the ability to test your product?
? Yes, I can get someone to test it.

Mathematically inconel doesn't work, why test something that mathematically does not fit? You find something close and then test.

If there is a material stronger then inconel and simultaneously cheaper all while having a high CTE it sure escaped my thorough trounce through MATWEB, and DOD materials handbooks. Super strong High temperature, high coefficient of thermal expansion, and cheap. I say pick two.
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Old 09-10-2009, 06:11 PM   #706
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I have no desire to play the he said, she said game. I believe that Inconel will work in this application, and I'm going to do the R&D to back it up, on a car that is an appropriate test bed for finding a solution to this problem. If it doesn't work, then we will find something else; if it does, then I will order a bunch of them and we will have solved this problem.
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Old 09-10-2009, 06:21 PM   #707
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Thats fair enough. I looked these fasteners up primarily for the community. I would be surprised if I made more the $300 off selling 25 fastener sets, but at the same time I'm not willing to full on divulge all the fruits of my work for free such as my material choice. It took me atleast 30 hours which included computational fluid dynamics time transient thermal analysis, and intensive stress/strain matching along with coefficient of thermal expansion analysis to figure it all out and shared much of it with the community. It would be nice if i could get a little reward for it, but if you get to it first then good on you.
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Old 09-10-2009, 06:38 PM   #708
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Sav, call up this dude at poly and tell him his good buddy matt yates from class of forever ago wants you to ask him the question of studs:

James Widmann - Faculty & Staff - - Mechanical Engineering - Cal Poly
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Old 09-10-2009, 06:47 PM   #709
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I just spent $2k to make my turbo stay on the manifold. I would have dropped $200 on studs if they worked.

I'm was at the point of desperation...and still am. If this turbo stays tight next weekend over 2-days of track action I'll be amazed and happy that I don't have to buy another car to play with at the track. I've dumped enough money in my car to make myself sick, all I want to do is drive it. $100 would have been a small price to pay.
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Old 09-10-2009, 09:28 PM   #710
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I will sell them to you at my cost, plus what ever freight I am charged. If you wait until I have another order from this supplier, no charge on incoming freight. I did call on these studs. They are $6.00 each, and would have to be made. They are not in stock. They also have those spring washers you wanted too.

Stephanie
They've got M8 Bellevilles? Do they have the force vs. deflection data on them?
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Old 09-10-2009, 09:29 PM   #711
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Travis,

Is there a cheaper material that gives up some plastic deformation strength, but still has the high temp capability, Young's modulus and CTE?
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Old 09-11-2009, 12:57 AM   #712
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Jason makes a good point - I don't think we need the strength, merely the CTE and lack of deformation.

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Originally Posted by Savington View Post
I have no desire to play the he said, she said game. I believe that Inconel will work in this application, and I'm going to do the R&D to back it up, on a car that is an appropriate test bed for finding a solution to this problem. If it doesn't work, then we will find something else; if it does, then I will order a bunch of them and we will have solved this problem.
Best of luck to you, I think you do some good stuff so I'll be anxious to see it. That said, it sounds like you're falling for the "if I spend more it'll be better" thing, only not really. Still, too much cash for something that you can almost PROVE won't work - or not work well.


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They've got M8 Bellevilles? Do they have the force vs. deflection data on them?
What are those 034 nuts anyway? Tight fit threads? I assume so, they sure don't look like much. Mine, so far, haven't given any trouble, still happy with them.
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Old 09-11-2009, 01:13 AM   #713
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Best of luck to you, I think you do some good stuff so I'll be anxious to see it. That said, it sounds like you're falling for the "if I spend more it'll be better" thing, only not really. Still, too much cash for something that you can almost PROVE won't work - or not work well.
well who's going to test whatever you come up with? There are roughly 3 people on this forum who have this problem on this forum, and only 2 of us are on the same continent. Sav already said that he won't sell it without testing it.

oh, and
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I just spent $2k to make my turbo stay on the manifold. I would have dropped $200 on studs if they worked.

I'm was at the point of desperation...and still am. If this turbo stays tight next weekend over 2-days of track action I'll be amazed and happy that I don't have to buy another car to play with at the track. I've dumped enough money in my car to make myself sick, all I want to do is drive it. $100 would have been a small price to pay.
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Old 09-11-2009, 01:47 AM   #714
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That said, it sounds like you're falling for the "if I spend more it'll be better" thing, only not really.
1. I spent the money to upgrade to v-bands, and they are better. This makes it difficult to see the point you're trying to make here.

2. Between the R&D money it takes (borrowing someone's car, doing free work in exchange for the use of their car, paying for the track time that I normally wouldn't buy for myself, gas to/from the track, plus the prototypes that I'm purchasing at 3x the wholesale cost) and the cost of the studs themselves, I think I'm going to just break even if I can sell 10 sets. You think Moton actually spends $6k to sell a product for $10-12? No. They spend $300 a shock, and then the other $7k they spend on R&D to make sure they sell the best shocks in the world. I hold myself to that standard - I'll spend the money to ensure that the solutions that I provide solve the problem. You're more than welcome to not buy my product, but look at the cost of a track day, after the hotel, gas, food, entry fees, etc. and tell me that $100 up front isn't worth the hundreds (thousands?) you'll save in lost track time.
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Old 09-11-2009, 05:35 AM   #715
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I am going to say two things at this stage:
1) My 304 is still on, after yet another record breaking track day. I've asked my engineer what the exact meterial spec is, and how much more sets will cost me.
2) You can have the best stud in the world, you will still need to get the flanges mated. If they are warped you are going to FAIL anyway. Read the Audi forums.
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Old 09-11-2009, 10:40 AM   #716
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Travis,

Is there a cheaper material that gives up some plastic deformation strength, but still has the high temp capability, Young's modulus and CTE?
You want cheap and ok its going to be 316 torqued as little as you can possibly go. I have another idea to fix this problem, but it involves using a special material thick spacer/gasket with a different stud material. It would definitely have to be tested because its a little outside the box but I can't get an engineering sample for it. Approximate end cost is 50-70 dollars. I still have to have all the costs generated as I've only got the plates sourced and still have to get pricing on waterjet cut and studs. Would it hurt anything if the turbo was moved over .25in?
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Old 09-11-2009, 11:22 AM   #717
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well who's going to test whatever you come up with? There are roughly 3 people on this forum who have this problem on this forum, and only 2 of us are on the same continent. Sav already said that he won't sell it without testing it.
so if two of you are already sporting v-band solutions and the third guy seems to not have the problem anymore, why is this thread even continuing?

seems like 3 people in the world is not enough to justify 3 companies developing multi-hundred-dollar nut-and-stud setups.

just my 0 cents.
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Old 09-11-2009, 11:23 AM   #718
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Quote:
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Would it hurt anything if the turbo was moved over .25in?
For some there may be rubbing.
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Old 09-11-2009, 03:51 PM   #719
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Quote:
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well who's going to test whatever you come up with? There are roughly 3 people on this forum who have this problem on this forum, and only 2 of us are on the same continent. Sav already said that he won't sell it without testing it.
Make that four people on the forum. I've had this problem for over a year, running at or a bit under SM lap record times. Up to this point I've been re-tightening at the track after 2 or so sessions. I have a custom manifold and a t3 turbo so it's a little bit easier to access the hardware to re-tighten them.

I've been leaning toward going the v-band route but at this point the piston with the hole in it is my biggest priority.

Hopefully by the time I get my car back on the track someone will have come up with a magical, cheaper solution.
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Old 09-11-2009, 03:54 PM   #720
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Originally Posted by y8s View Post
so if two of you are already sporting v-band solutions and the third guy seems to not have the problem anymore, why is this thread even continuing?

seems like 3 people in the world is not enough to justify 3 companies developing multi-hundred-dollar nut-and-stud setups.

just my 0 cents.
The cost of going to V-bands is a big hurdle for most of the DIY'ers. Even at a $100 for 4 studs, it is cheaper than v-bands.

I don't understand why the companies don't pull their resources and decrease their collective risk. Especially since this is an admitted low-profit solution.

Chris
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