EPIC nuts/studs loosening thread (reposting stupid stuff without reading = warning) - Page 46 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 10-23-2009, 01:25 PM   #901
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what are the chances that our shitty motors are producing extreme harmonics that superior engines are not producing so they do not have this problem? Baby jesus is telling me to move on with my life, money, and hobby.
did you balance all the moving components in your motor? do you run the ATI damper?
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Old 10-23-2009, 01:35 PM   #902
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did you balance all the moving components in your motor? do you run the ATI damper?
The machinist bragged about the low balance he achieved. I have no damper...i might in the near future if I can find one at a reasonable price.
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Old 10-23-2009, 01:56 PM   #903
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The machinist bragged about the low balance he achieved. I have no damper...i might in the near future if I can find one at a reasonable price.
vibration is a tough thing to fight. believe it or not, electricians have issues with screws loosening from 60Hz electricity.

the damper MAY help. who knows.
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Old 10-23-2009, 01:58 PM   #904
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at this point I need to either commit to the 4-cylinder turbo, or sell everything off and pick up the ls3/t56/8.8.
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Old 10-23-2009, 02:31 PM   #905
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I had (and continue to have) huge issues with vibrations on my motor. It, too, was balanced very well. I would constantly break off anything bolted to the intake manifold.
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Old 10-23-2009, 03:00 PM   #906
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The Mazda BP is a thrashy, coarse thing. That doesn't help durability matters at all, but not directly responsible for the hardware failures described in this thread (studs stretching etc). It's more a design & metallurgy issue.
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Old 10-23-2009, 03:11 PM   #907
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The Mazda BP is a thrashy, coarse thing. That doesn't help durability matters at all, but not directly responsible for the hardware failures described in this thread (studs stretching etc). It's more a design & metallurgy issue.
Jay, I'm glad you're here because you know more about this stuff than I do. What direction can you point me in? Do I use this Nimonic stud material that Tial obtained for me, do I safety-wire the tial stuff, do I safey wire the nimonic stuff, or do I just get over it and give up? Why does someone like Matt Andrews not have these problems and I do? I don't get it and its about to make me quit car stuff...again.

Don't you guys deal with this at Garrett? I we can't be the only people suffering from this.

edit: What really concerns me is that the F2 Williams cars are using the tial housings with Nimonic metal studs on audi 1.8t motors and they don't have this problem anymore...so if mine fail again, that means its a problem with something outside of the turbocharger or manifold I assume.
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Old 10-23-2009, 03:36 PM   #908
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There are two problems with using the Garrett bolts with the Tial hsg. The first is that the bolts are very likely seeing higher EGTs than originally intended. By itself this isn't the end of the world since there's some margin designed in there. But when you combine this with the Tial hsg, which is SS and expands a LOT more than iron, things loosen.

Nimonic is a very high nickel superalloy, and so even though it doesn't necessarily have the same coefficient of thermal expansion as SS, it won't relax either. The Tial guys are super sharp, so if they say their replacement hardware will do the job then I would go with that.

Safety wire is never a bad idea but good luck drilling thru Nimonic.
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Old 10-23-2009, 03:43 PM   #909
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Quote:
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There are two problems with using the Garrett bolts with the Tial hsg. The first is that the bolts are very likely seeing higher EGTs than originally intended. By itself this isn't the end of the world since there's some margin designed in there. But when you combine this with the Tial hsg, which is SS and expands a LOT more than iron, things loosen.

Nimonic is a very high nickel superalloy, and so even though it doesn't necessarily have the same coefficient of thermal expansion as SS, it won't relax either. The Tial guys are super sharp, so if they say their replacement hardware will do the job then I would go with that.

Safety wire is never a bad idea but good luck drilling thru Nimonic.
Thanks for the reply and data.

Savington and I both used the "funky, unnamed metal" fasteners provided by TiAL. The funny part about the nimonic studs is that TiAL doesn't sell them directly (although they handled the ordering for me), don't make them, and apparently they did not develop this solution.

I suppose I'll just bolt-in the nimonic stuff and hope it doesn't cost me another $500 in CHRA in a couple sessions. At least I now have v-bands so it takes me 30-minutes round trip to take the turbo in and out.
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Old 10-23-2009, 03:45 PM   #910
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Also, before when I said the vibration wasn't causing the stud failures, I was referring to the manifold/turbo joint hardware yielding issues. Certainly when hardware is *loosening*, vibes should be looked at.

Vibration CAN be an absolute bitchwhore for durability. It is always a good idea to make absolutely certain that the turbo and/or downpipe can't rub the chassis when the motor is all torqued over in its mounts.
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Old 10-23-2009, 04:05 PM   #911
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See, with my inconel safety wire I can let the tial hardware stretch and the safety wire will keep me from buying another housing. However, eventually after tightening, the tial hardware will break and I'll have to take the turbine housing to a machine shop and get the stud removed.

With the nimonic studs one can stretch or loosen , fall out, then I am out another $500 in CHRA.

I'm moving this to my other thread.
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Old 10-24-2009, 08:58 PM   #912
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46 pages. I've kept up with most of it. Haven't gone back through every post though. Flame me if I suck for asking this.

Did anyone try ARP's turbo stud kit? They are calling the material 300 stainless. Proprietary material apparently. About $40 a set. Ordered a set to put on when I swap my mani. May be useless crap but they are so well repected on other studs and bolts I thought I'd try them. It's not insanium but it seems nothing is perfect.

Here's from the ARP catalog...

Quote:
ARP manufactures a variety of premium grade bolt and stud kits to
facilitate installation of exhaust headers including the popular stainless stud
kit with 12-point nuts. The Stainless 300 material is not affected by corrosion
or extreme heat, making it ideal for the application. What’s more, the
compact 12-point nut lets you easily slip a socket close to the pipe. Each ARP
accessory stud or bolt kit includes the specific number of parts for your application,
plus premium-quality washers and hex or 12-point nuts, as required.
Studs are manufactured with a unique nut-starter nose that helps prevent
cross-threading. Studs and bolts come either black oxide chrome moly or
Stainless 300. Both are nominally rated at 170,000 psi tensile strength;
substantially stronger than Grade 8 hardware. Specially drilled “NASCAR”
models are available for those who wish to safety wire their header bolts to
Special “NASCAR” model prevent loosening.
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Old 10-25-2009, 10:50 PM   #913
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I would worry about being able to get a socket in these tight spaces. I think it'd be a deal breaker for the FM manifold.
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Old 10-26-2009, 12:07 AM   #914
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I like how the ARP description has nothing to do with heat, expansion, plasticity, or anything that actually matters.

I should also note that my sister is now stretching and breaking turbo hardware in here bone-stock MSM, and she drives like a girl.
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Old 10-26-2009, 12:21 AM   #915
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I did not keep up with any of this thread except the first 2 pages. Amazed its still going on.
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Old 10-26-2009, 03:10 PM   #916
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
I like how the ARP description has nothing to do with heat, expansion, plasticity, or anything that actually matters.

I should also note that my sister is now stretching and breaking turbo hardware in here bone-stock MSM, and she drives like a girl.
Yeah. It's a shame they don't say which 300 series stainless they use. 304, 316, etc. I'm going to try them without that info, counting on ARP's reputation for quality fasteners.
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Old 10-26-2009, 04:08 PM   #917
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what is the thread-pitch of the studs from header to head? Tell me now, if you want to live!!!

m10x1.25
or
m10x1.5
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Old 10-26-2009, 04:27 PM   #918
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My 10x1.5 stage 8s dont thread onto my blown motor in the garage so im guessing its x1.25
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Old 10-26-2009, 04:52 PM   #919
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My 10x1.5 stage 8s dont thread onto my blown motor in the garage so im guessing its x1.25
god damn it I'm so ******* over this bullshit.
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Old 10-26-2009, 05:17 PM   #920
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Its M10x1.25 Trey.
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