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Old 05-23-2016, 10:15 AM   #321
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you really need to think about the application. remember when you remove items from a stock safety cell your saying "i know best" and throwing the money the manufacture invested into he trash. Sometimes if your changing safety items on an older car you are actually making an improvement. from personal experience i would rather be in a na/nb miata with a FIA seat over the stock unit (while still using the 3 point). the stock miata seats leave a lot to be desired for side impacts, even minor ones. for an example to the contrary on my personal street car (2007) it has lots of side impact air bags. on that car i would leave the stock units in, until i went full FIA race car.
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Old 05-30-2016, 12:17 PM   #322
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Sort of an old post, but as a passenger, I'd rather wear 3-points than a 5/6-point without a HNRS. Unrestricted head motion during a big impact while wearing a harness is something to be avoided at all costs.

The answer that you really don't want to hear is that your passenger shouldn't be wearing a harness without a HNRS.
Really? Weren't 5/6 pts used for decades before HNRs were developed?
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Old 05-30-2016, 12:29 PM   #323
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Default What I did

So after reading this thread and trying several different seats, I went with Kirkey Road Race 16s mounted on 2 inch wide 3/16th steel without the humps removed and I/o port braces. Schroth 6pt with the "street legal" latch and a Necksgen HNR. I added a back support pillow from Staples that velcros onto the seat. First track day with the new setup last Monday. I am definitely happy with the setup.






Had to notch the seat though. It is basically against the bulkhead, perhaps a half inch off.

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HPDE / track day safety gear flow chart !!-412522865.jpg   HPDE / track day safety gear flow chart !!-412522886.jpg   HPDE / track day safety gear flow chart !!-412522866.jpg   HPDE / track day safety gear flow chart !!-412359418.jpg  
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Old 05-30-2016, 12:39 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by ridewhencan View Post
Really? Weren't 5/6 pts used for decades before HNRs were developed?
And before that lap belts were considered safe.

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Originally Posted by ridewhencan View Post
So after reading this thread and trying several different seats, I went with Kirkey Road Race 16s mounted on 2 inch wide 3/16th steel without the humps removed and I/o port braces. Schroth 6pt with the "street legal" latch and a Necksgen HNR. I added a back support pillow from Staples that velcros onto the seat. First track day with the new setup last Monday. I am definitely happy with the setup.






Had to notch the seat though. It is basically against the bulkhead, perhaps a half inch off.

With the humps cut out you can fit it without cutting the seat. With a hard dog hard core non hardtop.
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Old 05-30-2016, 12:50 PM   #325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Sort of an old post, but as a passenger, I'd rather wear 3-points than a 5/6-point without a HNRS. Unrestricted head motion during a big impact while wearing a harness is something to be avoided at all costs.

The answer that you really don't want to hear is that your passenger shouldn't be wearing a harness without a HNRS.
Agreed

About 2 years ago I bought two spare helmets and HNRS for the passengers an our ride along cars.
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Old 05-30-2016, 02:49 PM   #326
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And before that lap belts were considered safe.

With the humps cut out you can fit it without cutting the seat. With a hard dog hard core non hardtop.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I definitely see the benefit of the HNR. I thought the original post was saying that 5/6 point was worse than 3 point.

As for the humps, sitting on the floor I can't see well enough over the dash. Six feet tall but short torso. This set up feels just about perfect, given the space.

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Old 05-30-2016, 02:52 PM   #327
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They are worse. 3 point slows your body down and let's it rotate. 5/6 points isolate your head and let it fly forward on its own. Causing basilar skull fractures
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Old 05-30-2016, 03:00 PM   #328
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They are worse. 3 point slows your body down and let's it rotate. 5/6 points isolate your head and let it fly forward on its own. Causing basilar skull fractures
Got it. I expect that my instructors will all have HNRs so it shouldn't be a problem for my situation. I was just curious that with the science 5/6 points have been in racing for so long. I'm sure there are additional considerations as well but the original poster's point is made.
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Old 05-30-2016, 03:01 PM   #329
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They are worse. 3 point slows your body down and let's it rotate. 5/6 points isolate your head and let it fly forward on its own. Causing basilar skull fractures
They are worse in this one way, they are better in fifty zillion other ways. There is a specific impact type (high-deceleration rate frontal impacts) which is associated with basal skull fractures, but that's not what most impacts are. By running harnesses without a HANS you're trading off reduced safety in one type of accident for increased safety in most other types.

There's no question that 5/6-point with HANS is the best solution, but 5/6-point without HANS is overall safer than 3-point without HANS.

--Ian
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Old 05-30-2016, 04:13 PM   #330
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^so is it accurate to say the 3 point belts with helmet AND hans is not safe? Because my torso will rotate?

flow chart says the 3 point with aibag is ok
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Old 05-30-2016, 04:19 PM   #331
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Your HNR isn't going to work properly without harness straps holding it in place.
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Old 05-30-2016, 04:27 PM   #332
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Ah ok that makes sense. The belt only covers one side of the hans...
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Old 05-30-2016, 04:40 PM   #333
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There's no question that 5/6-point with HANS is the best solution, but 5/6-point without HANS is overall safer than 3-point without HANS.
I disagree. Any high-G impact that isn't directly backwards into your seat will leave your head unrestrained in a 5/6pt harness. That includes heavy frontal impacts, but it also includes side impacts and glancing blows. With a 3-point your torso will go along with it.

I personally elected to jump to a containment seat after the BMW fatality at BW last winter. That driver was wearing 5-points in an FIA seat, but no HNRS and no containment seat. 110mph impact on the passenger door with a corner worker station. Basal skull fracture.
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Old 05-30-2016, 05:57 PM   #334
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Is a containment seat one that has the wrap around section near the head area?
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Old 05-30-2016, 05:59 PM   #335
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Is a containment seat one that has the wrap around section near the head area?
Let me google that for you
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Old 05-30-2016, 05:59 PM   #336
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Yes, also known as a 'halo seat.'
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Old 05-30-2016, 06:03 PM   #337
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I actually did google that, but I didn't know for sure. Thanks senpai! Oh and I've been meaning to call you about an engine.

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Old 05-30-2016, 06:42 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Savington View Post
I disagree. Any high-G impact that isn't directly backwards into your seat will leave your head unrestrained in a 5/6pt harness. That includes heavy frontal impacts, but it also includes side impacts and glancing blows. With a 3-point your torso will go along with it.
Let me preface this by saying I am not trying to diminish the importance of using a proper HANS device. It's absolutely the right way to go, and personally I won't go out on a track without mine any more.

But if you *are* going to go out without a HANS, preferring a 3-point to a 5-point is crazy talk. You really don't want your torso moving around. You're focusing on one relatively infrequent cause of injury and ignoring all of the other risks associated with an improperly-restrained torso. Basilar skull fractures show up as frequent causes of death of race car drivers, yes, but that's because the successes in other forms of safety improvements in motorsports make them stand out. Saying you'd prefer a 3-point to a 5-point is like trying to say NASCAR would have been better off using 3-point belts from 1980 to 2001.

As for frequency, look over the list of race car drivers killed by basilar skull fractures on the wikipedia page here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilar_skull_fracture

The only one of those drivers to die in a normal road course crash is Roland Ratzenberger (and even his was pretty unusual/spectactular). Gonzalo Rodriguez was the only other one on a road course (Laguna Seca, stuck throttle, he went straight off the top of the corkscrew and hit a wall at the bottom). All 16 of the other fatalities were at ovals, most of them super speedways. Half of them were Indy or Daytona. The factor those tracks have in common is high speeds in close proximity to unyielding concrete walls. This is not the environment of your usual Miata track day or NASA race (well, not unless you go to California Speedway in Fontana). The BW crash was a freak -- it *can* happen at road course, absolutely, but it's not common and the 3-point is going to increase your risk in a lot of other ways.

--Ian
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Old 05-30-2016, 07:10 PM   #339
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the 3-point is going to increase your risk in a lot of other ways.
What specific ways?
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Old 05-30-2016, 07:14 PM   #340
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How will anyone at shows know you track your car if you don't Have harnesses?
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