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Old 01-29-2016, 11:32 AM   #181
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when people say it's expensive i don't understand that. it's cheap, it's all cheap. yes there are some very cheap items, but if you take a step back and look at cost. if that seat saves your life how much would you pay to buy another one?

we had a gentlemen that ran with us at nasa SE. had a bone stock corvette. overcooked a tun and found a wall, hit his head on the wall. lived threw the initial impact, wen't home, took a nap, had internal bleeding in his brain, and never woke up. he had stock seat with harnesses, he decided not to buy a seat and used "dickey straps" instead. this guy was not broke he had many high dollar corvettes. i ask now.. after the fact. How much do you think he would pay for a containment seat, how much would his family pay? suddenly $2000 seams like chump change when the part your buying is tomorrow.
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Old 01-29-2016, 11:48 AM   #182
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Google won't give me a Yankee translation for dickey straps. What are those now?
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Old 01-29-2016, 01:58 PM   #183
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Dickey straps brings these to mind :

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Old 01-29-2016, 02:22 PM   #184
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Ah, got it. So the straps were doing a better job of holding the side of the seat in place than the human, like race harnesses used with stock miata seats. Oof, what a way to go :(

How long ago was the incident? It's a shame that got through tech.
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Old 01-29-2016, 05:19 PM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OGRacing View Post
How much do you think he would pay for a containment seat, how much would his family pay? suddenly $2000 seams like chump change when the part your buying is tomorrow.
That's the way I've always thought about safety, ****, what's more expensive, a hospital bill or some safety equipment?
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Old 01-30-2016, 11:17 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
With a harness and seat but no HNRS, the airbag is too far away to do anything except shower you with caustic powder while your head flies forward and snaps your spinal cord/breaks your skull.
I respectfully disagree. As with so many things, pics or it didn't happen ... I have pics. In these pics, I am the driver, with a seat + 6pt Schroth enduro harness strapped in as tight as I could get and still breathe. The seat is almost all the way back, and at maximum rake, so I start off about as far away from the airbag as one can.

Based on this personal experience, seat + 6pt harness + airbag + helmet is still complete win for a frontal collision.

Edit: I will definitely be running with a hnrs in the future that offers lateral protection. But there is no reason to be concerned about using a stock airbag wheel with a seat and harnesses. The airbag reaches farther than you think.

Edit2: this was my green '01, no exploding shrapnel in this airbag.








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HPDE / track day safety gear flow chart !!-vlcsnap-2016-01-31-16h06m58s380.png   HPDE / track day safety gear flow chart !!-vlcsnap-2016-01-31-16h07m09s152.png   HPDE / track day safety gear flow chart !!-vlcsnap-2016-01-31-16h07m17s944.png   HPDE / track day safety gear flow chart !!-vlcsnap-2016-01-31-16h07m26s404.png   HPDE / track day safety gear flow chart !!-vlcsnap-2016-01-31-16h07m34s749.png  

HPDE / track day safety gear flow chart !!-vlcsnap-2016-01-31-16h07m41s485.png   HPDE / track day safety gear flow chart !!-vlcsnap-2016-01-31-16h07m53s730.png   HPDE / track day safety gear flow chart !!-vlcsnap-2016-01-31-16h08m04s400.png  
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Old 01-30-2016, 11:28 PM   #187
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Wow, it doesn't look like it was a complete win for your passenger. Why is he moving around so much, and why didn't his airbag go off?

Also, more details on the crash? Speed at impact? Your head still looks to be moving way more forward compared to your body than I'd want mine to.
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Old 01-30-2016, 11:49 PM   #188
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Speed was high 4th gear (6speed), maybe 6500 when we touched the dirt on the outside of the kerb. Passenger had stock seat and 3pt, so not nearly as well braced. His airbag was turned off.

Edit: the next car will have seat+harness for the passenger.
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Old 01-31-2016, 12:05 AM   #189
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Yikes. I guess this is a good opportunity to bring up driver/passenger safety relationship since I don't recall seeing it in the thread. That car would not have been allowed on track where I run, and I believe for good reason. Passenger seat must meet driver safety standards if they are going to bring passengers or instructors. If the driver is driving at a rate that he feels it's necessary to upgrade from oem safety, then the passenger seat needs to be upgraded too to maintain that level of safety.

I won't make assumptions on the circumstances of your crash, but as an instructor, even if the organization didn't require equal safety for both seats, I would not get in a student's car if he had a full set up and just gave me the standard seat and 3 point.

Last edited by dasting; 01-31-2016 at 01:22 AM. Reason: Autocorrect
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Old 01-31-2016, 12:40 AM   #190
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This was a shameful day. I apex a bit early, power a bit early, and am running tires with less traction than the last time I was on this track. I am instructing this day, and the passenger is my student. This should never have happened.

We're only talking fractions of a second here. Be consistent, be safe. Absolutely do not put the outside wheels off when they are still laterally loaded.

Edit: after listening to it, 5000-5500 in 4th, not 6500. The aim solo was running but the data was meh when I looked at it, disappointing.

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Old 01-31-2016, 12:42 PM   #191
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I think the main point of an aftermarket wheel when you put in a seat and harness is ingress/egress -- not worrying about the OEM airbag.

So, Richard, you could get in and out of your car OK with the OEM wheel? What about egress if you had to get out but were a bit banged up?
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Old 01-31-2016, 11:10 PM   #192
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Would not have been an issue. I'm 6'2 so the wheel is always in my way even with the stock seat. It obstructs with the Marrad seat only marginally more. Being 6'2 also means the seat is all the way back, giving me the most space between the wheel and the seat.

Egress under injured/mobility impaired/door won't open conditions wouldn't be much different than with the stock seat.

Other seats with different bolsters and/or halo wings, might be more of an issue. Can't see without physically trying it.

With the Marrad seat and the stock wheel I can use the full 3pt plus airbag system on the way to and from events, and use the harness while at the event. My wife is still able to drive the car.

This works for me. Different sized people, with different seats, a different distance from the wheel - that needs to be evaluated individually.
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Old 02-01-2016, 11:28 AM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dasting View Post
Yikes. I guess this is a good opportunity to bring up driver/passenger safety relationship since I don't recall seeing it in the thread. That car would not have been allowed on track where I run, and I believe for good reason. Passenger seat must meet driver safety standards if they are going to bring passengers or instructors. If the driver is driving at a rate that he feels it's necessary to upgrade from oem safety, then the passenger seat needs to be upgraded too to maintain that level of safety.

I won't make assumptions on the circumstances of your crash, but as an instructor, even if the organization didn't require equal safety for both seats, I would not get in a student's car if he had a full set up and just gave me the standard seat and 3 point.
In my car I have matched seats and harnesses. If someone is going for a ride and they don't have a Hans I give them mine. If I live and my passenger dies I would never forgive myself.
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Old 02-01-2016, 02:47 PM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobius View Post
I respectfully disagree. As with so many things, pics or it didn't happen ... I have pics. In these pics, I am the driver, with a seat + 6pt Schroth enduro harness strapped in as tight as I could get and still breathe. The seat is almost all the way back, and at maximum rake, so I start off about as far away from the airbag as one can.

Based on this personal experience, seat + 6pt harness + airbag + helmet is still complete win for a frontal collision.

Edit: I will definitely be running with a hnrs in the future that offers lateral protection. But there is no reason to be concerned about using a stock airbag wheel with a seat and harnesses. The airbag reaches farther than you think.

Edit2: this was my green '01, no exploding shrapnel in this airbag.
I don't think this disapproves what Savington said:

your passenger was in 3 point and NO-airbag. He wasn't hurt (guessing here, but you would of mentioned something). So I don't think impact was severe enough to say if driver airbag made a difference or not.

from picture, I also am not sure if airbag came close enough to decelerate your head. it needs to compress quite a bit to decelerate.

Last edited by bellwilliam; 02-01-2016 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 02-02-2016, 09:47 PM   #195
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Thanks Bellwilliam for making this thread and thanks Mobius for posting your experience. I've been looking to upgrade my track day Miata (foamectomy and airbag) and yesterday had more or less decided on Marrad seats, Schroth ASM four point with a sub strap and a Necksgen REV. I was concerned how the Marrad might fare in an accident and now I know. Also, in the vid, it clearly appears that the bag decelerated the head at 20 secs in. There's a dent in it.


My inspiration for the up grade was my last track day at lime rock. There were two cars in front of me coming into big bend. The first car took an odd very wide turn in and the car behind him practically came to a stop. I braked hard and avoided the near stopped car but when I released my helmet hit the roll bar. Not a big deal in itself but the next lap I saw a 370 Z come over the hill in my rear view mirror, get sideways and crash straight into the inside wall. I've only done six events but the potential for things to get crazy quickly has become very clear.
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Old 02-03-2016, 09:38 AM   #196
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Is there any information ranking head/neck restraints in order of safety? Most it seems use the HANS due to it being accepted by sanctioning bodies, but there is the Necksgen, Zamp Ztech, and I'm sure others available. I have seen on here people mention certain ones provide more lateral support than others.
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Old 02-03-2016, 12:09 PM   #197
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Hans Sport III FIA Approved Head and Neck Support Device Medium | eBay

I'm shopping for a HANS style device. I came across this seller in the UK selling the Hans III model for about $420 shipped. $200 cheaper than any of the US sellers. But it doesn't say SFI approved. Only FIA. Any idea why?
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Old 02-03-2016, 12:29 PM   #198
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It's all cheaper over there for some reason. One thing to watch out for is import tax. They can't tell you how much it is until it goes through customs.
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Old 02-03-2016, 12:30 PM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aidandj View Post
It's all cheaper over there for some reason. One thing to watch out for is import tax. They can't tell you how much it is until it goes through customs.
Who pays the import tax? Shouldn't that be bundled in the shipping cost? it says they will ship to the US.



Edit: nvm, it says $28.81 GBP import charges which is $42. Still cheaper than any US seller but not as slick a deal.

The no CFI cert still bothers me. Did they sell a first run of these before they got approved by the SFI or something?
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Old 02-03-2016, 12:33 PM   #200
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Not sure. The seller I was talking to last was kind of vague.
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