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Old 01-07-2016, 01:18 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
It is also unrealistic to ask a hpde (what. Flow chart is about) car to install an automatic or pull fire system. I don't think I've seen one in anything other than w2w or exotic TA cars
I'm not saying everyone should have a built-in fire system, I'm saying that a handheld fire extinguisher is not useful for personal safety in the way that the other items listed in the "HPDE safety flow chart" are. Sure, having a handheld extinguisher around can certainly reduce your costs if you prevent a small fire from becoming a large one, but that's not really related to safety.

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Old 01-07-2016, 01:21 PM   #42
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^agreed, our not going to use it on yourself, like you would with a fire system. you could use it if a friend is in a burning car though.
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Old 01-07-2016, 01:46 PM   #43
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I have a handheld so I can put out a small fire on my vehicle once I have extricated myself. Three minutes for a fire crew to get there may be the difference between a charred component and a charred car.

Halo seat or center net will have most people disregarding your list as over the top.

I would also say "head and neck restraint" instead of using the brand name "HANS", especially since HANS is inferior to some of its competitors at side or angled impact protection and is only required by name by the the SCCA because of sponsorship dollars.

"If it isn't a fully stock street car, you may just as well build a sanctioned racecar with a full cage" is what I get from your chart.
I agree mostly what you said. I am not saying you must have halo seat, but having a halo seat is safer (more ***). Without a halo seat, I stil gave it a green rating if you have head and neck restraint (see what I did there), harness.

I will change the flow chart to tone down the *** and **** box. Also change out HANS to head and neck restraint
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Old 01-07-2016, 01:53 PM   #44
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If youre going to edit it, maybe also remove the negativity in the red boxes. In my experience, most people install a non-ASM 4 point thinking its actually an improvement without doing any research, and respond more positively to an explanation of why it's a bad idea.

Maybe also mention that getting an aluminum shell seat (Kirkey/Ultrashield) without a brace is incredibly dangerous.

Also +1 on Sparco Ergo seats, MMD members get 15% off on Sparco equipment too!
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Old 01-07-2016, 02:00 PM   #45
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I agree about the negativity. If the intention of the flow chart is to educate people, you'll have a lot more success by not calling them idiots first.
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Old 01-07-2016, 02:04 PM   #46
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I can't see the difference between 5pt and 6pt harnesses. When I'm sitting in my race seat my thighs* are touching each other and the crotch strap is obviously jammed in between. I'm not sure how having another strap jammed in the same spot is going to save my ***** in a crash.


Seems like to me they are going to be smashed either way. And I don't care- I'd rather have smushed ***** than die from a 4pt harness.





*I'm 5'10" 160 lbs, so not a big fatty fat.
with a 6 point the straps straddle your cockmeats and *****. with a 5 point, you sometimes end up with a ball on each side.
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Old 01-07-2016, 02:53 PM   #47
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Taken directly from the Schroth website:

"The SCHROTH asmŪ system offers an unique safety advantage for 4-point harnesses. asmŪ is the acronym for anti submarining. The risk to submarine (sliding underneath the lap belt), a well known phenomenon during frontal impacts, is significantly reduced by the asmŪ safety system. The energy converter is located in the inboard shoulder belt. Therefore make sure you purchase left and/or right harnesses.

Severe injuries or death are possible using 4-point harnesses without the SCHROTH asmŪ safety system or an anti-sub strap. SCHROTH harnesses designed for use on public roads (FE push button models) or those likely to be used as 4-points come with the asmŪ safety system. The performance of the SCHROTH asmŪ safety system has also been positively tested in conjunction with airbags. Current Head And Neck Supports (HANSŪ) provide further reduction of head deceleration and neck injury. All SCHROTH racing models likely to be used with any head and neck devices come without the asmŪ system.

Racing harnesses without asmŪ must be worn with an anti-sub strap!"

While this does mention, "the system has been positively tested with airbags", it does not say an airbag is required or even recommended. The flowchart does not reflect this correctly, indicating the use of an ASM 4-pt without an airbag is not safe to track.

Another point not covered by the chart and not addressed specifically by the Schroth website is, "All SCHROTH racing models likely to be used with any head and neck devices come without the asmŪ system." So there is no recommendation of an ASM harness being used on track with HANS devices. This statement makes it sound like if you do use an ASM on track, you should not use a HANS which to me means the ASM shouldn't be used on track at all but is ok for the street.

Either way the 4-pt ASM section of the flowchart is wrong. Either just say there is no 4-pt good for HPDE or update it to remove the airbag requirement.
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Old 01-07-2016, 03:34 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by scenturion View Post
If youre going to edit it, maybe also remove the negativity in the red boxes. In my experience, most people install a non-ASM 4 point thinking its actually an improvement without doing any research, and respond more positively to an explanation of why it's a bad idea.

Maybe also mention that getting an aluminum shell seat (Kirkey/Ultrashield) without a brace is incredibly dangerous.

Also +1 on Sparco Ergo seats, MMD members get 15% off on Sparco equipment too!
Agree on both accounts. I will fix that in next few days. The negativity was supposed to be funny when posted on Trackhq, where I know most of them. Will make it more politically correct
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Old 01-07-2016, 03:42 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Jumbosrule View Post
.
While this does mention, "the system has been positively tested with airbags", it does not say an airbag is required or even recommended. The flowchart does not reflect this correctly, indicating the use of an ASM 4-pt without an airbag is not safe to track.

Another point not covered by the chart and not addressed specifically by the Schroth website is, "All SCHROTH racing models likely to be used with any head and neck devices come without the asmŪ system." So there is no recommendation of an ASM harness being used on track with HANS devices. This statement makes it sound like if you do use an ASM on track, you should not use a HANS which to me means the ASM shouldn't be used on track at all but is ok for the street.

Either way the 4-pt ASM section of the flowchart is wrong. Either just say there is no 4-pt good for HPDE or update it to remove the airbag requirement.
I disagree, I think you got unit Classic A then B means B then A.

For all practical (safety) purposes, ASM 4 point behaves like a 3 point OEM I'm a crash. So they are treated the same.
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Old 01-07-2016, 03:50 PM   #50
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^agreed, our not going to use it on yourself, like you would with a fire system. you could use it if a friend is in a burning car though.
You guys at southeast don't see what we see here at desert track. Car spins off the track, car dies. hot exhaust ignites dry brown (no green grass in california, nor legal) grass. Car catches on fire slowly right in front of your eyes.

Another point I want to bring up is many organization do not instruct corner workers to leave station even if you are on fire. Corner workers needs to direct traffic, making sure there is no pile up. It takes a while for fire truck to get to you. If I see Another car crash and catch fire. I will stop and jump out to try to save him. (Probably a bad idea many will say). Also note we often run in test days, where there are no corner workers. Fire truck is 5 minutes away.

I've also seen cars catch fire at pit. Having a bottle helps.
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Old 01-07-2016, 04:40 PM   #51
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with a 6 point the straps straddle your cockmeats and *****. with a 5 point, you sometimes end up with a ball on each side.
The point I was trying to make is that with my seat/legs/harness there is NO WAY that my junk would fit through 6pt straps. I really don't see that working for very many people. Unless you have skinny legs or small junk
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Old 01-07-2016, 04:51 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by dcamp2 View Post
The point I was trying to make is that with my seat/legs/harness there is NO WAY that my junk would fit through 6pt straps. I really don't see that working for very many people. Unless you have skinny legs or small junk
Check out the Schroth Hybrid series of belts.

The anti sub straps mount to the lap belts so its much more comfortable and gives much more room in the junk region.


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HPDE / track day safety gear flow chart !!-80-hybrid_cam_d381a61ce63f261b9acf8c8ccfd374723d27c3d8.jpg  
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Old 01-07-2016, 06:13 PM   #53
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The point I was trying to make is that with my seat/legs/harness there is NO WAY that my junk would fit through 6pt straps.
Your junk doesn't need to when you're just driving. In the event of a crash, if the 2 antisub straps are mounted correctly (about 4 inches apart from each other), then when your body pushes forward, the two straps should stay in contact with your thighs and slide (not far, we're talking an inch as everything tightens), against your legs, with your goods in the middle. The closer you get to the floorpan, the wider the straps are from each other, cupping your junk. This is opposed to a single anitsub strap being mounted in line from your belly button, essentially to your back and just below your ***. There's a high chance of it catching all of your goods in a very painful way.

Reach down right now as you're sitting. With your knees pressed together, take your index fingers like you're pointing them and push them both between your thighs, snug against your junk. Everything is kind of just pressed together. In a crash, since these are connected away from each other underneath of you, they will spread as you move forward, press hard against the inside of your thighs out towards your hips, making space for your junk to go between them.

Now take just one hand and point your finger straight down against your junk. You should be able to see how now, in a crash, it's just going to catch everything hard from the middle of your abdomen, all the way around to your *******, ripping up everything in between. I cringe thinking about it.

edit- it's not really that the straps slide in a crash, more that they squeeze and pull on your thighs muscle and fat and all.

Last edited by dasting; 01-07-2016 at 06:25 PM.
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Old 01-07-2016, 06:28 PM   #54
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my seat only has one sub strap hole... (Sparco Sprint V)

I get it... just still think your junk is going to be sore no matter what.
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Old 01-07-2016, 07:01 PM   #55
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If the anti-sub belt is adjusted correctly (read: really fudging short) then you will not lose your junk. It should pull the latch down really far so that it is difficult to attach the anti-sub belt and the lap belts to it (shoulder straps should be very loose at this point). Then you tighten the lap belts which should be pulling down low across your pelvis. At that point the two lap belts and anti-sub should all be pulling the lap belts tight against the tops of your legs and down hard across your pelvis bones and hips. You shouldn't be able to move your *** in the seat at all, no matter how much force you use or how you twist. Only after your lap belts are tight as hell do you take the slack out of the shoulder harnesses and snug them against your chest.

The only way an anti-sub belt can hurt you is if it is too loose and the lab belt rides above your side pelvis bones (or if your seat bottom is not secured in such a way as to maintain the tension on the belts during the impacts). This rising lap belt is also what crushes the soft squishy bits in your middle belly and makes you die prior to arrival at the hospital. Both the loss of nuts and rupture of organs can be traced to anti-sub belts that are too long and/or people tightening shoulder belts prior to fully tightening the lab belts and securing the pelvis.

BTW, all of this info came with my harnesses. Instructions were really detailed on what to do, what not to do, and why.
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Old 01-07-2016, 07:23 PM   #56
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^better detail on how tight the straps should be when not in a crash. Thanks. The movement I was referring to is the straps tightening on your legs even more when exposed to multiple g forces. If mounted correctly, it's in a direction away from junk.
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Old 01-07-2016, 07:26 PM   #57
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Cats to you, Six.
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Old 01-11-2016, 11:02 AM   #58
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I understand why it's unsafe to run a 6pt harness without a head and neck restraint, but what if you still have the factory steering wheel and airbag?

My car is currently stock (safety wise) other than a roll bar and padding, and I slide around A LOT when I drive. It seems to me that the added containment from a proper seat and 6pt harness would be safer overall than my 17 year old OEM setup, assuming I keep the airbag.

I'm planning on getting a head and neck restraint in the very near future, so this doesn't really matter. But it's something I've been thinking about a lot lately.

Also, has anybody seen/used the new Schroth or Leatt head and neck restraints?
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Old 01-11-2016, 11:30 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumbosrule View Post
Taken directly from the Schroth website:

"The SCHROTH asmŪ system offers an unique safety advantage for 4-point harnesses. asmŪ is the acronym for anti submarining. The risk to submarine (sliding underneath the lap belt), a well known phenomenon during frontal impacts, is significantly reduced by the asmŪ safety system. The energy converter is located in the inboard shoulder belt. Therefore make sure you purchase left and/or right harnesses.

Severe injuries or death are possible using 4-point harnesses without the SCHROTH asmŪ safety system or an anti-sub strap. SCHROTH harnesses designed for use on public roads (FE push button models) or those likely to be used as 4-points come with the asmŪ safety system. The performance of the SCHROTH asmŪ safety system has also been positively tested in conjunction with airbags. Current Head And Neck Supports (HANSŪ) provide further reduction of head deceleration and neck injury. All SCHROTH racing models likely to be used with any head and neck devices come without the asmŪ system.

Racing harnesses without asmŪ must be worn with an anti-sub strap!"

While this does mention, "the system has been positively tested with airbags", it does not say an airbag is required or even recommended. The flowchart does not reflect this correctly, indicating the use of an ASM 4-pt without an airbag is not safe to track.

Another point not covered by the chart and not addressed specifically by the Schroth website is, "All SCHROTH racing models likely to be used with any head and neck devices come without the asmŪ system." So there is no recommendation of an ASM harness being used on track with HANS devices. This statement makes it sound like if you do use an ASM on track, you should not use a HANS which to me means the ASM shouldn't be used on track at all but is ok for the street.

Either way the 4-pt ASM section of the flowchart is wrong. Either just say there is no 4-pt good for HPDE or update it to remove the airbag requirement.
DO NOT use a 4 point harness. ALL 4 points are death traps.. do not use them.

the main engineering. Every FIA/SFI & OEM harness on the market has mounting points in the chassis. So when you crash it has a mounting point is reinforced in steel, and this is why- during a 50 mph crash (a 160lbs object/man) into a solid object (like a tree or wall) your body will be exerting almost 30 tons of energy. you need to be able to be stopped. safely!

A 4 point harness has the shoulder mounting straps on the belt itself, not an anchor point in the chassis. so in a crash your shoulders (figure 20 lbs for your head and arms) will be pushing on those mounts (in the amount of almost 2 tons) your head will go forward, your shoulders will follow. that 2 tons of energy will be transmitted into the shoulder straps. those straps (the two mounting points in the harness itself) will pull up on your lap belt. that lap belt will go into your stomach and it will cause damage to your internal organs. your hips can take 25+g's without any damage. your stomach can only take 1-2g's before there is internal bleeding. if you have internal bleeding from blunt force (as opposed to being shot) you might was well skip the ambulance and call a priest.

Schroth 4 point is not safe either. it has an elastic band on one shoulder that makes the body twist. this twist is supposed to be safer, i have no idea why they say that. the hip strap is still not anchored. when i watch the video for the schroth 4 point you can clearly see the dummy's body. you can see the harness going into it's stomach. that dummy is dead, or if it was alive at one point it wouldn't be after that crash. In the video schroth says the harness is “safe” but the crash that you and I are watching that dummy would die. Internal bleeding is no joke. It takes a crash as slow as 20-30mph to have internal bleeding from a harness. Once that harness enters your gut it rupetrs organs, your blood pressure drops quickly. At this point you have anywhere from 7-60 min of life left, most of the time internal bleeding is unrepeatable. So you know your dying the whole time. Please don’t run 4 point harnesses. rin a FIA or SFI rated harness. a harness is your first level of defense.
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Old 01-11-2016, 12:19 PM   #60
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I've had so many people at track days ask me why I still have my huge ugly stock steering wheel with the airbag... This is why. I drive my car on the street to get to the track, and I have the stock 3 point belt. Not as safe as a 5-point with proper neck restraint but at least the system is as designed.

I am curious though, with all this talk of 4-point harnesses being a deathtrap, how is submarining mitigated with a stock 3-point belt? Is it the pivot at the hips that's allowed by the belt deforming, which you don't get from a harness?

Good post.
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