HPDE / track day safety gear flow chart !! - Page 4 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Race Prep Miata race-only chat.
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-11-2016, 12:24 PM   #61
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,362
Total Cats: 1,323
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WMP View Post
I understand why it's unsafe to run a 6pt harness without a head and neck restraint, but what if you still have the factory steering wheel and airbag?
With a harness and seat but no HNRS, the airbag is too far away to do anything except shower you with caustic powder while your head flies forward and snaps your spinal cord/breaks your skull.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcamp2 View Post
The point I was trying to make is that with my seat/legs/harness there is NO WAY that my junk would fit through 6pt straps. I really don't see that working for very many people. Unless you have skinny legs or small junk
Mine would, and I have the biggest babymakers on the entire internet (don't we all?). Schroth's sub straps are sewn back on themselves so they sit perpendicular to the sub strap T-bar, and they run up the insides of your thighs instead of sitting directly on your nuts. It's one of several reasons why I'll shell out the $$$ for Schroth belts in every car I own (webbing quality, adjuster quality, camlock ease of use)

Safety on track can be drilled down to one simple fact: Safety devices work as a system. Your 3-point belts allow your body to move in an impact, and your shoulders moving forward will naturally tighten the lap belt and pull your pelvis into the seat, preventing submarining. The airbag then catches your head and chest and prevents you from losing teeth/facial features. If you change any part of the equation (belts, seat, airbag), you lose the functionality of the entire system. Similarly, with an FIA seat+6pts+HNRS, the seat prevents the harnesses from slipping off your shoulders, the harness stops your body from moving and the HNRS stops your head from snapping off. If you don't use any one part of that system, the system stops working, and you're better off not having done anything at all.

I'm going through this with my street car after the fatality at BRP last month. I have the OEM airbag, OEM 3-points, and Elise seat (OEM belts interact with the Elise seat perfectly), which is perfect on the street. For track days, I'll have a full FIA containment seat, Schroth FIA 6-points, HNRS, and a Sparco wheel.
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2016, 12:28 PM   #62
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (1)
 
OGRacing's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,764
Total Cats: 46
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
With a harness and seat but no HNRS, the airbag is too far away to do anything except shower you with caustic powder while your head flies forward and snaps your spinal cord/breaks your skull.



Mine would, and I have the biggest babymakers on the entire internet (don't we all?). Schroth's sub straps are sewn back on themselves so they sit perpendicular to the sub strap T-bar, and they run up the insides of your thighs instead of sitting directly on your nuts. It's one of several reasons why I'll shell out the $$$ for Schroth belts in every car I own (webbing quality, adjuster quality, camlock ease of use)

Safety on track can be drilled down to one simple fact: Safety devices work as a system. Your 3-point belts allow your body to move in an impact, and your shoulders moving forward will naturally tighten the lap belt and pull your pelvis into the seat, preventing submarining. The airbag then catches your head and chest and prevents you from losing teeth/facial features. If you change any part of the equation (belts, seat, airbag), you lose the functionality of the entire system. Similarly, with an FIA seat+6pts+HNRS, the seat prevents the harnesses from slipping off your shoulders, the harness stops your body from moving and the HNRS stops your head from snapping off. If you don't use any one part of that system, the system stops working, and you're better off not having done anything at all.

I'm going through this with my street car after the fatality at BRP last month. I have the OEM airbag, OEM 3-points, and Elise seat (OEM belts interact with the Elise seat perfectly), which is perfect on the street. For track days, I'll have a full FIA containment seat, Schroth FIA 6-points, HNRS, and a Sparco wheel.
exactly right!

collect your safety gear, one at a time if you need to. when your ready to install it install everything together.

it's like a DIY turbo kit. you really want a turbo, but your not going to put one under the hood until you have everything and your ready. don't lose the functionality of the oem safety system until you have a sfi/fia system ready to replace it.
OGRacing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2016, 02:55 PM   #63
Junior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 387
Total Cats: 10
Default

flow chart updated. more politically correct version :(
also changed ** rating to ABCDF rating. easier to understand.

want to thank OG Racing's input. learned something new....
bellwilliam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2016, 02:59 PM   #64
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (1)
 
OGRacing's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,764
Total Cats: 46
Default

my whole job is to keep you guys safe.. literally.
OGRacing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2016, 12:03 PM   #65
Senior Member
iTrader: (8)
 
nigelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Carmel Valley, CA
Posts: 655
Total Cats: 71
Default

This guide doesn't say much about seats. I know you shouldn't use a 5/6 point with a stock seat. But you also shouldn't use a 3 point with a racing seat right? That puts anyone of average or above height in a predicament. To pass the broomstick test, you need a racing seat. To have a racing seat you need a racing harness and wheel and neck restraint. So if you want to try out driving on the track you are looking at a multi-$thousand investment. Is there any way around this downward spiral?

Are there aluminum seats that can be mounted super low for rollover safety and still use the 3-point/airbag combo?
nigelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2016, 12:16 PM   #66
Junior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Salem, OR
Posts: 363
Total Cats: 40
Default

Could be summarized thusly:

Have your car stock + roll bar and Elise seat

or

Have a dedicated track car with all the safeties.

EDIT: Also, sounds like I really need to rethink my seat/harness/wheel strategy. Anybody have a line on an affordable Elise seat?
dleavitt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2016, 12:22 PM   #67
Senior Member
iTrader: (8)
 
nigelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Carmel Valley, CA
Posts: 655
Total Cats: 71
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dleavitt View Post
Could be summarized thusly:

Have your car stock + roll bar and Elise seat

or

Have a dedicated track car with all the safeties.
or, get a bigger car? Tall man no fit with elise seat :(
nigelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2016, 12:35 PM   #68
Junior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Salem, OR
Posts: 363
Total Cats: 40
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nigelt View Post
or, get a bigger car? Tall man no fit with elise seat :(
Maybe have some vertebrae removed?

My interior progression has left me in a bad place. Started with getting a race seat to get me lower and help prevent my noggin from hitting the roll bar (NA seatback only went up to the base of my skull). Then I needed a removable steering wheel to get in and out of the car with the race seat. So now I have no airbag, a race seat, and 9 times out of 10 use the stock belt because lazy/don't want a ticket. I did remove the tear-away section of the belt, but still not ideal.

Sounds like what I really need to do is get the Elise seat and put the OEM wheel back in. And replace my seatbelt I guess. Sucks, as I really like my Momo wheel and Recaro.
dleavitt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2016, 12:35 PM   #69
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (1)
 
OGRacing's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,764
Total Cats: 46
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nigelt View Post
This guide doesn't say much about seats. I know you shouldn't use a 5/6 point with a stock seat. But you also shouldn't use a 3 point with a racing seat right? That puts anyone of average or above height in a predicament. To pass the broomstick test, you need a racing seat. To have a racing seat you need a racing harness and wheel and neck restraint. So if you want to try out driving on the track you are looking at a multi-$thousand investment. Is there any way around this downward spiral?

Are there aluminum seats that can be mounted super low for rollover safety and still use the 3-point/airbag combo?
stock seats are not fantastic by any means, they offer zero side impact protection, and only offer a mild rear collision protection. Fia seats with a 3 point i would consider an upgrade in a miata. they have much better side protection, and rear impact protection. i would only pick a seat that does not interfere with the operation of the 3 point harness. example a halo seat would not allow the shoulder strap to lay over your shoulder, so i would not recommend that set up. if you had a seat with a air bag in it, i wouldn't replace it.
OGRacing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2016, 12:43 PM   #70
Senior Member
iTrader: (8)
 
nigelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Carmel Valley, CA
Posts: 655
Total Cats: 71
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OGRacing View Post
stock seats are not fantastic by any means, they offer zero side impact protection, and only offer a mild rear collision protection. Fia seats with a 3 point i would consider an upgrade in a miata. they have much better side protection, and rear impact protection. i would only pick a seat that does not interfere with the operation of the 3 point harness. example a halo seat would not allow the shoulder strap to lay over your shoulder, so i would not recommend that set up. if you had a seat with a air bag in it, i wouldn't replace it.
What about something like a Kirkey Intermediate Road Race, set up with the lap portion of the 3-point going through the holes in the side, and a stock wheel with airbag? The shoulder portions of the seat wouldn't interfere with the shoulder belt, so would there be any drawback to using such a seat (rigged up with a back brace) with 3-point and airbag?


Attached Thumbnails
HPDE / track day safety gear flow chart !!-80-kir_47719_d827f16c2b72be19e34faa3daa8f5dea07a11e15.jpg  
nigelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2016, 12:50 PM   #71
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Farmington Hills, MI
Posts: 873
Total Cats: 93
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nigelt View Post
What about something like a Kirkey Intermediate Road Race, set up with the lap portion of the 3-point going through the holes in the side, and a stock wheel with airbag? The shoulder portions of the seat wouldn't interfere with the shoulder belt, so would there be any drawback to using such a seat (rigged up with a back brace) with 3-point and airbag?


This is how I used to have my Kirkey setup. I was scared of taking an airbag to the face, instead of the torso.
acedeuce802 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2016, 12:51 PM   #72
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (1)
 
OGRacing's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,764
Total Cats: 46
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nigelt View Post
What about something like a Kirkey Intermediate Road Race, set up with the lap portion of the 3-point going through the holes in the side, and a stock wheel with airbag? The shoulder portions of the seat wouldn't interfere with the shoulder belt, so would there be any drawback to using such a seat (rigged up with a back brace) with 3-point and airbag?


i don't see anything wrong with that. make sure you brace it to your roll bar. don't use those IO port braces. those are for expired FIA seats.

follow these instructions for installing aluminum seats.
Mini Stock Seat Install - Installing Safety Upgrades in Project City Boy - Circle Track Magazine
OGRacing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2016, 01:27 PM   #73
Junior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 387
Total Cats: 10
Default

There is a reason I didn't talk about seat much. you would be surprised, but NASA (and many other organizations) do not have a concise rule for seats !!

a friend that races in Miata. Raced in PTE with foam as a seat, yeap, foam. and this is w2w.

if you watch many dedicated race cars, you will also see all form of weird looking "seats".
bellwilliam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2016, 01:52 PM   #74
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 251
Total Cats: 38
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
There is a reason I didn't talk about seat much. you would be surprised, but NASA (and many other organizations) do not have a concise rule for seats !!

a friend that races in Miata. Raced in PTE with foam as a seat, yeap, foam. and this is w2w.

if you watch many dedicated race cars, you will also see all form of weird looking "seats".
There's so many variables, and basically comes down to the region's race tech/head of HPDE tech inspector.

3 point belts with race seats are usually a no-no, because it's very rare that the belts actually sit snuggly against the hips, shoulders and waists of the drivers, rendering the belts pretty useless. You can route the lap belt through the holes, but even then the side supports almost always infringe on the correct engagement of the shoulder belt.


I know the flow chart mentions going to trackhq.com with questions, but I think it's equally important to contact the organization directly that a person plans to run with. Different organizations have different minimum requirements, and it's always worth checking with their head of tech to see if what they have (or plan to do) is sufficient, especially now that tracks are also starting to get strict with their own rules. Of course, it's never bad to go above and beyond what an organization requires (like those shitty ones that don't even require roll bars).
dasting is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2016, 03:16 PM   #75
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (1)
 
OGRacing's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,764
Total Cats: 46
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dasting View Post
There's so many variables, and basically comes down to the region's race tech/head of HPDE tech inspector.

3 point belts with race seats are usually a no-no, because it's very rare that the belts actually sit snuggly against the hips, shoulders and waists of the drivers, rendering the belts pretty useless. You can route the lap belt through the holes, but even then the side supports almost always infringe on the correct engagement of the shoulder belt.


I know the flow chart mentions going to trackhq.com with questions, but I think it's equally important to contact the organization directly that a person plans to run with. Different organizations have different minimum requirements, and it's always worth checking with their head of tech to see if what they have (or plan to do) is sufficient, especially now that tracks are also starting to get strict with their own rules. Of course, it's never bad to go above and beyond what an organization requires (like those shitty ones that don't even require roll bars).
100% agree
OGRacing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2016, 01:17 AM   #76
Senior Member
 
Scaxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 671
Total Cats: 217
Default

Good advice in here. Really wish the previous owner hadn't put an aftermarket steering wheel in my beater, it's not even a nice one. But that's life I guess, I've been meaning to cut that seat belt for a while so I don't end up in a head butting competition with my steering wheel.
Scaxx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2016, 06:32 PM   #77
Elite Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Granbury, TX
Posts: 6,009
Total Cats: 583
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Humjaba View Post
I am curious though, with all this talk of 4-point harnesses being a deathtrap, how is submarining mitigated with a stock 3-point belt? Is it the pivot at the hips that's allowed by the belt deforming, which you don't get from a harness?
With a 3-point, torso pressure against the cross-torso portion of the belt tends to tighten the lap portion DOWNWARD against the hips. There is no force or tendency for the lap portion to move upward into the soft tissue. The dynamics are completely different than a 4-point where pressure on the shoulder belts pulls the buckle and lap portions upward.
hornetball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2016, 06:45 PM   #78
Elite Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Granbury, TX
Posts: 6,009
Total Cats: 583
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
I'm going through this with my street car after the fatality at BRP last month. I have the OEM airbag, OEM 3-points, and Elise seat (OEM belts interact with the Elise seat perfectly), which is perfect on the street. For track days, I'll have a full FIA containment seat, Schroth FIA 6-points, HNRS, and a Sparco wheel.
Not familiar with that accident. Link?

I need to do something similar for track days on the Silver car. Swapping the seats and belts is a simple bolt-in solution that I can do in about 15 minutes prior to going to the track. But swapping the steering wheel seems more involved. Is there some trick I'm missing?

I cruised the Silver car around the track on Sunday. It sucked. Spent all my time trying to stay in position on the m.net Katskin-covered OEM seat. I've never come off track thinking to myself "that sucked" before.
hornetball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2016, 09:27 PM   #79
Elite Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Granbury, TX
Posts: 6,009
Total Cats: 583
Default

Regarding the steering wheel question -- compare:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Under no circumstances is it safe to crash in a vehicle with a breakaway seatbelt mechanism if the airbag is absent or non-functional.
OTOH, JKAV (working on a 1997 -- which perhaps doesn't have breakaway belts?) says:

"Whatever the reason, the last straw in our case was that the leather on our stock 128k-mile wheel was delaminating and pockmarked like Edward James Olmos' face, and the two probably felt similar. It had to go. Yes, the airbag goes with it, and I'm okay with that, as airbags of this era were designed for unbelted occupants and so deployed with considerably more force than today's bags. I'll stay belted, remove the bomb and save myself the broken arm, thanks. But with what to replace the stock wheel?"

Momo Wheel Gory Details - 1997 Mazda MX-5 Miata Long-Term Road Test

Based upon everything I've seen -- and also what I did on the red car to convert it to dedicated track use -- it's not really feasible to swap back and forth between the OEM airbag steering wheel and a track steering wheel. So, would the safe answer to running something like a Momo on the street in a 1990 Miata be to install non-breakaway 3 points? Non-breakaway belts are available from Mazda.

Another thing I noticed is that my 1990 has original breakaway belts on both the driver's side (with airbag) and the passenger's side (without airbag but with a bit more distance before there is something to hit).

So . . . ???
hornetball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2016, 10:29 PM   #80
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: OKC, OK
Posts: 2,644
Total Cats: 76
Default

EDIT
z31maniac is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Reverant MS2 help wanted Rafa MEGAsquirt 29 11-21-2016 07:45 PM
Improved coolant reroute Jumbosrule Fabulous Fabrication 40 01-24-2016 02:53 PM
1.8 valve cover with exposed cam gears Hahnlsquid Miata parts for sale/trade 4 12-29-2015 04:40 PM
Crank timing gear for 1.8 and key williams805 WTB 4 12-21-2015 09:06 PM
help wanted to get ms 2.2 running in NB Colby Gorter MEGAsquirt 2 12-14-2015 04:36 PM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:28 AM.