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Old 04-23-2013, 12:14 PM   #261
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Comprehensive response. I guess if you ignore it you don't have to justify it to yourself.
I dont need justification. Your points dont address MY concerns, and I'm the admin, so **** off.

If you dont believe me, we can wait till I ban you and then you can know for sure what that really means. derp.
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Old 04-23-2013, 12:27 PM   #262
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I am unable to address your concerns... I am not part of the investigation. I do not have subpoena power over the FBI. I cannot draw conclusions without a reasonable amount of evidence which has not been presented.
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Old 04-23-2013, 12:28 PM   #263
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I dont need justification. Your points dont address MY concerns, and I'm the admin, so **** off.

If you dont believe me, we can wait till I ban you and then you can know for sure what that really means. derp.


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Old 04-23-2013, 12:31 PM   #264
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Are there spectator cellphone photos and vids of the perps that are clearer than the first "these are the perps" surveillance photo of them released by the FBI?
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Old 04-23-2013, 12:33 PM   #265
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Very disturbing that the men in black forcibly removed private citizens from their homes with guns drawn.

Very disturbing that two ******** shut down an entire major city. That speaks more to the city than a pothead teenager on the loose. It makes me wonder how many times "We're open for a major law suit." was said at a city meeting, should the terrorists cause more harm because the city didn't shut down services.

It also makes me think of Katrina, where lawful citizens had their guns taken by the cops, and then had the looters steal their possessions.
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Old 04-23-2013, 12:41 PM   #266
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addressing concerns:

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Originally Posted by Ryan_G View Post
What I think is funny about all the bitching about all of the FBI sting operations that "entrapped" people as terrorists is that people are failing to realize all that happened is that the FBI targeted people that had already openly expressed the desire to carry out terrorist acts and "recruited" them before actual terrorists got to them first. How do you think people are radicalized in the first place?
Okay. Now just some quesitons: Would they have done it if the FBI had no approached them? Who's the say it wasn't the FBI that Islamed them? Were these two part of a sting operation?

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What the FBI is doing in these cases is a classic sting operating no different than when they set people up for other crimes. It is not entrapment because these people are predisposed to commit these crimes which is often evidenced by statements they make on blogs/forums.
I would say a classic sting operation would be the FBI finds out about a crime, and then PREVENTS it; not encourages it.

Yes, they go about it on their own accord. It's not really entrapment, but I believe by using that term you knew exactly what I was talking about.

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It should also be noted that when the FBI performs these stings all of the explosive materials are provided to the suspects and are always duds that cannot actually be used. This was not an FBI inside job. For those of you asking why they would be performing bomb drills during a huge public gathering, you know like the kind terrorists like to target, are obviously not aware that agencies like to simulate real life situations.
If the FBI happens to be providing them that day.

Questions: So even during a real live "sting operation" they couldn't stop two real bombing subjects. or every other times it coindientally happens? Does this suggest that bomb training is pointless becuase it's not preventable without a true sting operation or real information about it accuring? How do you know it wasn't an FBI inside job? Did you see the evidence after the trial?


Quote:
I am not saying there are not holes in this story but it has already been stated that not all of the evidence has been released because the trial has not even started yet. Jumping to conclusions now would be ignorant. Wait until after the trial when all evidence is made public to draw conclusions about what adds up and what does not.
Okay. that's fine.

Questions: Is it then wrong for me to ask questions and suggest different scenarios that might have played out? Is it wrong for me to question the motive of our gov't? Have I jumped to conclusions? How can you believe evidence if it's possible it was staged? what would the ramifications be if it was discovered there was something fishy going on? In an easy conviction case against OJ Simpson, police planted evidence, could they have done that here?


Quote:
EDIT: I also wonder how anyone with a conspiracy theory thinks that the government is able to successfully brainwash every member of every law enforcement agency involved in these events to make them go along with this **** and never have a major leak. With the amount of people that are out there trying to find corruption and huge conspiracies no one has yet to provide solid evidence that is irrefutable. Do you really think that the government is just THAT good at covering it up that everytime someone wants to expose it the govt. can completely shut it down? Not one mole would be smart enough to leak the information in a way the government could not control it?
I'm sure it's pretty easy to get away with many a things. But yes, you bring up valid points.

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I am not talking about proving he did it. I am talking about evidence that may speak to some of the holes in the story that have been pointed out. I have no idea what kind of evidence they have. If they never release anything that can explain why there was no blood in the pictures or why the story kept changing or various other inconsistencies then question away. I am not saying the government is Jesus and never does wrong but people like to jump to conclusions when they do not have all the facts and more will be released in time.
yes they do, and even when they have more facts, they still want to convict Zimmerman.

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Ok. So now you are taking a cover up/conspiracy stance so please address my previous concern.
I could come up with twenty to thirty different ways to maybe explain things. All I've done is question the stories and maybe suggest something bigger going on, be it a cover up or what I dunno. Things aren't adding up to me, I live to question EVERYTHING, so that's what I'm doing. Right now, as presented, there's more to meet the eye, maybe I'm wrong, but it just all seems crazy to me. Is that so wrong?

Quote:
You are claiming that the government is so good at cover ups that they have not had one major slip up that has escalated out of their control ever. The same government that you have also proclaimed time and time again is unable to do a single thing efficiently. That seems like a contradictory view of how well the government operates. They are unable to provide efficient services but they can successfully silence every single employee they have that is involved in a cover up. Seems legit to me.
that's not contridictory, we have no idea what happens behind closed doors and without the beaurocracy at work. I dont trust our gov't.

This is like you saying, because I have no idea where Braineack works, or how much money he has in his bank account, or if he even has a bank account, I therefore conclude he does not make any money.

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I cannot draw conclusions without a reasonable amount of evidence which has not been presented.
I have yet to draw one conclusion, I believe that's apparent from post #243. I jsut want to know what happened here. that's all, and when events dont add up I go crazy with crazy thoughts and since my wife wont listen to them, I post them here. Like how can I help but think, this is a great way to excerise the Patriot Act, get citizens used to having the military shut down their cities, force their way into their homes, and pass laws to make Big Brother a reality? Is it far fetched? sure. But really, it makes me wonder.

I'm just glad we are at this point, because from Monday-Thursday, if I heard another report about it potentially being a right-winged neo-**** exteremist...

here's some conspiracy theory for you Ryan: why did all the inital news reports all suggest that's who probably did it, and never once suggested it could have been some sort of al-queda group?

also please remember, take only about 20% of whatever I post online as serious or with any real thought behind it.
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:10 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
Okay. Now just some quesitons: Would they have done it if the FBI had no approached them? Who's the say it wasn't the FBI that Islamed them? Were these two part of a sting operation?
Maybe, maybe not. They had already expressed a desire to do so for the most part. There is that one case where the kid claims to have been put under intense pressure by the agent and this may be true and if so it would have been entrapment. However, many of the others possessed the will without the necessary skills. The FBI in a way acts as a terrorist recruiter and provides them with the tools necessary and maybe a target to carry out what they have already confessed to having the desire to do. They are just getting to them before a real terrorist does.

I highly doubt these two in the Boston bombings were part of a sting. There has been no real evidence to suggest that they were, only conjecture based on what their lives appeared to be after the fact.

Quote:
I would say a classic sting operation would be the FBI finds out about a crime, and then PREVENTS it; not encourages it.
Most stings are actually based off of FBI created scenarios used on people who were previously criminals (I.E. current drug dealers) or people who are believed to be capable of committing or planning to commit a violent act

Quote:
Yes, they go about it on their own accord. It's not really entrapment, but I believe by using that term you knew exactly what I was talking about.
You are right it is not entrapment. I do know what you are talking about but this is a great way to prevent crimes before they happen.

Quote:
Questions: So even during a real live "sting operation" they couldn't stop two real bombing subjects. or every other times it coindientally happens? Does this suggest that bomb training is pointless becuase it's not preventable without a true sting operation or real information about it accuring? How do you know it wasn't an FBI inside job? Did you see the evidence after the trial?
If you are referring to the bomb training as a sting operation, that would be incorrect. If you were talking about the video you linked earlier I have not watched it yet.

The bombs used in the Boston Bombings used either black or smokeless powder which bomb dogs are often not trained to smell. It is also not a plausible explanation to say that because a tactic failed once that it is never useful. Successful discoveries never receive coverage or not very much because nothing interesting happened.

This could have been an FBI inside job but I HIGHLY doubt it. I not claimed to KNOW anything.

Quote:
Questions: Is it then wrong for me to ask questions and suggest different scenarios that might have played out? Is it wrong for me to question the motive of our gov't? Have I jumped to conclusions? How can you believe evidence if it's possible it was staged? what would the ramifications be if it was discovered there was something fishy going on? In an easy conviction case against OJ Simpson, police planted evidence, could they have done that here?
I don't care if people ask questions. I am a little jaded and tired of all of the people who assert ridiculous conspiracy theories with no real evidence. You did not jump to any conclusions I just felt you were feeding a ridiculous fire. This is more of my own perception than reality.

Anything can be staged but you cannot discount evidence because it might be staged unless you have actual evidence that it may have been staged. As I said before, a lack of evidence is not actually evidence.

Quote:
yes they do, and even when they have more facts, they still want to convict Zimmerman.
Political. I could totally see the prosecution railroading a bit on this case to because of its nature. That is far different then a full blown cover up.

Quote:
I could come up with twenty to thirty different ways to maybe explain things. All I've done is question the stories and maybe suggest something bigger going on, be it a cover up or what I dunno. Things aren't adding up to me, I live to question EVERYTHING, so that's what I'm doing. Right now, as presented, there's more to meet the eye, maybe I'm wrong, but it just all seems crazy to me. Is that so wrong?
No it is not. You just seem to be only suggesting large cover up explanations while completely overstepping much tamer ones.

Quote:
that's not contridictory, we have no idea what happens behind closed doors and without the beaurocracy at work. I dont trust our gov't.

This is like you saying, because I have no idea where Braineack works, or how much money he has in his bank account, or if he even has a bank account, I therefore conclude he does not make any money.
That analogy has nothing to do with what I said.

Quote:
I have yet to draw one conclusion, I believe that's apparent from post #243. I jsut want to know what happened here. that's all, and when events dont add up I go crazy with crazy thoughts and since my wife wont listen to them, I post them here. Like how can I help but think, this is a great way to excerise the Patriot Act, get citizens used to having the military shut down their cities, force their way into their homes, and pass laws to make Big Brother a reality? Is it far fetched? sure. But really, it makes me wonder.
As long as you admit it is far fetched then sure, it makes you wonder. Have I considered it? Sure. I would never pass it along though because most people spread that **** like its truth and not conjecture.
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:12 PM   #268
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there's officially too many words in this thread.

new info: When I walk around the office I always whistle Oh! Susanna.
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:32 PM   #269
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Trials are just a big game and the government has a lot of resources.
Not enough resources to convict R. Kelly, Robert Blake, Lorena Bobbitt, Casey Anthony, Amanda Knox*, Andrea Yates or OJ Simpson apparently. Or is it your assertion that they were all framed as well?

* = Foxy Knoxy was acquitted by an Italian court, but that still counts as "the government."



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_G View Post
You are claiming that the government is so good at cover ups that they have not had one major slip up that has escalated out of their control ever. The same government that you have also proclaimed time and time again is unable to do a single thing efficiently.
That's the part that I find hilarious about mass-coverup claims. On the one hand, we love to point out how the Fed is basically incapable of doing anything perfectly, and on the other hand, we then assert that they are somehow capable of not merely orchestrating the perfect crime, but also of getting a thousand people to all keep it a secret for the rest of their lives?

Yeah...
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:41 PM   #270
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Not enough resources to convict R. Kelly, Robert Blake, Lorena Bobbitt, Casey Anthony, Amanda Knox*, Andrea Yates or OJ Simpson apparently. Or is it your assertion that they were all framed as well?
I am not claiming anyone was framed or that they were not. Trials are a game. That is a fact. The govt. has a lot of money and a lot of people at its disposal. That makes it a lot easier to win a case whether you are right or not and you do not even need to frame someone to do it.

My current professor in the FBI who also has his law degree openly admits that trials are a game and involve theatrics. He never says if this is a good or bad thing. It is just the way it is. You have 12 jurors who need no qualifications making decisions about life and death. They are just normal people. Normal people are easily swayed by pretty graphs, experts who could tell them anything because the jurors would not know any better, and a smooth talking lawyer.

My favorite saying he has about jurors is, "Jurors are on average, below average. All of the above average citizens are able to get out of jury duty because they have more important places to be. That leaves you with average and below average people, which by definition makes them on average, below average."

In the end it comes down to whoever can come up with a more convincing narrative of the events based on the evidence and what the jurors are predisposed to believing.
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:44 PM   #271
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:46 PM   #272
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You have 12 jurors who need no qualifications making decisions about life and death. They are just normal people. Normal people are easily swayed by pretty graphs, experts who could tell them anything because the jurors would not know any better, and a smooth talking lawyer.
Well, I guess my only question would be what you propose as an alternative?

I guess we could do military tribunals; they are typically run entirely by people who are well-educated and not easily swayed by theatrics.
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:50 PM   #273
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Well, I guess my only question would be what you propose as an alternative?

I guess we could do military tribunals; they are typically run entirely by people who are well-educated and not easily swayed by theatrics.
I never suggested we need an alternative or that there is a better alternative. I am just explaining the nature of the situation.

No system will ever be perfect. The system we have in place was designed that way for a reason and I think it does a pretty good job for the most part.
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Old 04-23-2013, 02:57 PM   #274
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I like the quote from Let's Go To Prison.

"Juries are made up of 12 people so dumb they couldn't even come up with an excuse to get out of Jury duty."
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:18 PM   #275
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I simply LOVE how every major event that has happened on US Soil in the last 50 years is a Gov. conspiracy.

OKC: Was Gov., Look at angle of camera pointing from Gas station! Was a setup to peg it on the white man!
WTC 1993: Failed Gov attempt to bring down the building
WTC 9/11: Planned demolition to invade iraq! (Government)
Pentagon 9/11: Missile! (Government)
Aurora: Was special trained military operative and current suspect is just a patsy setup and left to take the fall. Setup for Gun Control
Sandy Hook: They took the kid in and 2 total operatives did the murdering (or did anyone even die?!?!?!?!?) and then planted evidence to make it look like kid did it all. Death blow for Gun Control
Boston: Government for yet undetermined reason. (Pat on back and rationalization for Patriot Act and budget)

So, either our Government is so awesome at protecting us that we are immune to terrorist attacks and mass shootings on our soil, or our Government is so powerful that it can pull off these massive feats of cover ups, scams, and atrocities all the while still arguing over what kind of toilet paper to keep stocked in the bathrooms.
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:22 PM   #276
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what they all have in common is islamic terrorists actually. so obviously a white neo-**** did it.
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:53 PM   #277
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Ryan,

Have you read this?:
Rolling Stone: How FBI Entrapment Is Inventing 'Terrorists' - and Letting Bad Guys Off the Hook

The bastards "create" their own terror plots, then "bust" them, in order to justify the budget and existence of their anti-terrorism unit.

What if the bombing were an FBI entrapment operation gone awry?
What if the dipshits broke off contact from the informant that egged them on initially, and went ahead and did it?

Maybe someone had an inkling something might go down so they had bomb-sniffing dogs out, but so as not to worry the public, were told to say "it's an exercise".

If the above were true, the FBI would look really, really bad, and it would be in the FBi individuals' interest to cover it all up. Cover-ups can and do happen, and sometimes someone talks only years later.
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:59 PM   #278
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I never suggested we need an alternative or that there is a better alternative.
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Old 04-23-2013, 04:06 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
If the above were true, the FBI would look really, really bad, and it would be in the FBi individuals' interest to cover it all up. Cover-ups can and do happen, and sometimes someone talks only years later.

Dont worry, the FBI, in an effort of honesty and transparency, would present this evidence in court and we would eventually know if this happened or not after the trial.
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Old 04-23-2013, 04:09 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
Ryan,

Have you read this?:
Rolling Stone: How FBI Entrapment Is Inventing 'Terrorists' - and Letting Bad Guys Off the Hook

The bastards "create" their own terror plots, then "bust" them, in order to justify the budget and existence of their anti-terrorism unit.

What if the bombing were an FBI entrapment operation gone awry?
What if the dipshits broke off contact from the informant that egged them on initially, and went ahead and did it?

Maybe someone had an inkling something might go down so they had bomb-sniffing dogs out, but so as not to worry the public, were told to say "it's an exercise".

If the above were true, the FBI would look really, really bad, and it would be in the FBi individuals' interest to cover it all up. Cover-ups can and do happen, and sometimes someone talks only years later.

This by far the most realistic theory of the "conspiracies", I think.
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