EPIC nuts/studs loosening thread (reposting stupid stuff without reading = warning) - Page 25 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 07-26-2009, 05:44 PM   #481
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Quote:
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Well I found the perfect set of hardware to do this, I could sell it as a kit. You can't get the hardware you need in packs of less then 25. Anyone interested to test my system?
He posts this as I tighten the last nut on the turbo/mani/dp installation
If mine does not work out, and yours does, I'll be interested.

EDIT: Well, it may not be an option now that I think about it. Your kit is probably going to be for tapped manifolds?
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Old 07-26-2009, 05:52 PM   #482
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
Well I found the perfect set of hardware to do this, I could sell it as a kit. You can't get the hardware you need in packs of less then 25. Anyone interested to test my system?
...
Hustler?
I'm interested. More details?

I must have missed how we went from (educated) speculation to having the perfect hardware.
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Old 07-26-2009, 06:07 PM   #483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZX-Tex View Post
He posts this as I tighten the last nut on the turbo/mani/dp installation
If mine does not work out, and yours does, I'll be interested.

EDIT: Well, it may not be an option now that I think about it. Your kit is probably going to be for tapped manifolds?
You have the benefit of readily available hardware in the correct material. It's hard to find studs in the same material.
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Old 07-26-2009, 07:38 PM   #484
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You have the benefit of readily available hardware in the correct material. It's hard to find studs in the same material.
Yeah that is one advantage of through-bolting. I already had all the hardware in metric, including the Stage-8 nuts/bolts, so went ahead and used it. But now I can use standard fasteners, which makes it a lot easier to get A286 hardware, stuff that is pre-drilled for safety wire, etc. Plus, with the through-bolts, I am 90% sure I could swap out the turbine inlet flange hardware without pulling the manifold/turbo/DP out of the car.

Speaking of which, the Stage-8 bolts made installing the DP much easier. With the manifold and turbo in place and all bolts tightened, I was able to feed the DP up through the bottom of the car, feed the bolts through the flange, and tighten them down. In other words, no juggling of the mani/turbo/DP to get it all in place before tightening. I had to shave a couple of the retention tabs to clear the DP pipes which was no big deal. Otherwise, they went right on. Also, the combo hex-head and socket head on the bolts was great, as I could switch back and forth between the two depending on which was easier in that particular spot for tightening the bolt.

One thing I did not like about the Stage-8 hardware were what they call the 'turbo bolt kit'. On those, since they are bolts, the groove they cut around the head of the bolt for the c-ring is deep, and therefore, there is not much material left between the outer wall of the groove and the major diameter of the interior threads. It reduces the strength some IMO, the question is whether or not it is significant enough of a reduction to be a problem in this application. We shall see!

Last edited by ZX-Tex; 07-26-2009 at 08:06 PM.
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Old 07-27-2009, 12:21 AM   #485
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Originally Posted by orion4096 View Post
I'm interested. More details?

I must have missed how we went from (educated) speculation to having the perfect hardware.
Baring turbo stud grimlins, I've got it locked down. I spent about 4 hours today sizing up all the CTE's, modulus's, yields, thermal conductivity, flange materials, bolt/stud frictions, and have devised torque specs and hardware that will not break or loosen... Theoretically, which is why mr.ethug is going to beat the crap out of it, and see how numbers stack upto the real world.
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Old 07-27-2009, 12:55 AM   #486
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What are your proposed torque specs?

Chris
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Old 07-27-2009, 01:10 AM   #487
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In for smiling around my car again. I plan to run 3 sessions at the track either this weekend or next. Now that I have every-other Friday off with my new job, I'm spoiled. I can work on my car AND drive it!!!

We should know something soon.
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Old 07-27-2009, 02:37 AM   #488
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In for a set
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Old 07-27-2009, 02:41 AM   #489
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@Travis, interested in what you found, 304L? 316L? A286? What size/length? What nuts?
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Old 07-27-2009, 11:18 AM   #490
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In for smiling around my car again. I plan to run 3 sessions at the track either this weekend or next. Now that I have every-other Friday off with my new job, I'm spoiled. I can work on my car AND drive it!!!

We should know something soon.
Good luck to you Travis and Hustler. Hopefully it works out. Hustler which track are you going to first?
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Old 07-27-2009, 01:50 PM   #491
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Originally Posted by ZX-Tex View Post
Pictures. No resbond yet, just a 'dry' fit
Picasa Web Albums - John - through bolt ...

Damn it, I hit the wrong key and wiped out my commentary of the pictures in the above link. I hate that. I could retype it all but I think I will have another beer instead.
So, looking at that, think a moment. If you keep a nut from rotating, and the nut has the stud captured, then you've pinned everything.

If you hold a nut from turning, and there's a bolt on the back, can't you just unscrew the bolt, and it'll fall apart?

I don't think that will prevent things from backing out. The longer length will help, but if you don't hold the bolts too, there's little point. Perhaps you could drill the heads and wire/pin them as well.

If you *pin* nuts on bolts, you keep them from turning, but all you're saying here is the bolt will unthread, not the nut. Unless I'm missing something? Certainly possible, many smart people saw that and didn't say anything.


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Originally Posted by ZX-Tex View Post
There is another aspect of this too. The material added to the joint (the manifold flange) is the same material as the bolt. Assuming BEGI uses a 300 series stainless flange, the CTEs are probably the same (the bolts are 300 series SS, 316 IIRC). Therefore, if they heat the same amount, then they elongate the same amount. Following from this, since the manifold flange makes up a large percentage of the thickness of the joint (more than 50%), the overall differential thermal expansion is decreased, meaning less bolt stress if the turbine housing material does indeed have a higher CTE than the stainless bolt and flange.
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I've never seen a Castelated Nut used with safety wire, only cotter pins. Bad Idea IMHO. Castelated Nut plus Resbonded stud and cotter pin might be worth a try.

Sav, do you have before and after pics of your safety wired hardware? What size/spec safety wire did you use?
There's really not a lot of practical difference between pinning and wiring. In principle, they both keep the nut from turning on the stud/bolt because of a object passing through both. Wires will also keep the whole pair turn (should keep a stud from coming out) but everything has to be tight to start with (which is why wired studs always look twisted up.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
Baring turbo stud grimlins, I've got it locked down. I spent about 4 hours today sizing up all the CTE's, modulus's, yields, thermal conductivity, flange materials, bolt/stud frictions, and have devised torque specs and hardware that will not break or loosen... Theoretically, which is why mr.ethug is going to beat the crap out of it, and see how numbers stack upto the real world.
Ok, this I'm interested in. Was the general approach to match everything, or to get the studs to react faster in expectation of where the flange is going?

I still like the spring idea, too bad there's no room. Anyway - post pics!! :-)
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Old 07-27-2009, 02:36 PM   #492
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If you hold a nut from turning, and there's a bolt on the back, can't you just unscrew the bolt, and it'll fall apart?
Right you are. I was wondering when someone would notice that. I have used resbond in the nuts so that should keep them from rotating relative to the bolt. I was going to drill the bolts for safety wire but did not have the proper drill bits to do it. If they come apart from unscrewing I'll definitely do add safety wire. With the bolt heads easily accessible I should be able to cut and rewire them in the car if need be. So the PIA aspect of using safety wire is less bothersome.
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Old 07-27-2009, 03:16 PM   #493
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Right you are. I was wondering when someone would notice that. I have used resbond in the nuts so that should keep them from rotating relative to the bolt. I was going to drill the bolts for safety wire but did not have the proper drill bits to do it. If they come apart from unscrewing I'll definitely do add safety wire. With the bolt heads easily accessible I should be able to cut and rewire them in the car if need be. So the PIA aspect of using safety wire is less bothersome.
If you had a lathe, go buy locknuts like I had, put in the grove yourself for the C-clip. :-)
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Old 07-27-2009, 03:17 PM   #494
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Good luck to you Travis and Hustler. Hopefully it works out. Hustler which track are you going to first?
MSR on a member day. If this works I'm going to be a seriously happy ****.
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Old 07-27-2009, 03:56 PM   #495
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Originally Posted by AbeFM View Post
.....
There's really not a lot of practical difference between pinning and wiring. In principle, they both keep the nut from turning on the stud/bolt because of a object passing through both. Wires will also keep the whole pair turn (should keep a stud from coming out) but everything has to be tight to start with (which is why wired studs always look twisted up.)

..
A cotter pin will provide the rigidity needed against a shearing force, safety won't. Safety wire is meant to "pull" on a fastener so that it doesn't loosen. I'm forgetting the proper Engineering terms but I think you know what I mean.

Chris
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Old 07-27-2009, 05:11 PM   #496
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Right. I would not use safety wire with castle nuts myself, only cotter pins (or the like) with castle nuts. The cotter pin is intended for shear loads, the safety wire is intended for tension loads or 'pull' as you put it.
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Old 07-27-2009, 05:12 PM   #497
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MSR on a member day. If this works I'm going to be a seriously happy ****.
Perfect. Same track where you had trouble before, so one less variable in the experiment.
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Old 07-27-2009, 05:15 PM   #498
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If you had a lathe, go buy locknuts like I had, put in the grove yourself for the C-clip. :-)
Yeah that is about all there is to it really, excluding the little triangular retainer piece with the 12-pt pattern on the inside.
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Old 07-27-2009, 06:19 PM   #499
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oh yeah, should I get one of these inconel gaskets made?
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Old 07-27-2009, 07:20 PM   #500
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oh yeah, should I get one of these inconel gaskets made?
No, because then you would be changing two variables at once. This is science, damn it!
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