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Old Jan 20, 2025 | 10:17 AM
  #32081  
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez
Biden preemptively pardoning Anthony Fauci, who has been accused of no crime, was an interesting touch.
Fauci got Biden the job, why wouldn't Biden pardon him for unleashing a slightly annoying cold to the entire world and playing it off as the most deadly outbreak in human existence while pushing deadly heart-stopping vaccines on the public, allowing the DNC to abuse the non-secure mail-in-ballot system, rigging the election in Biden's favor???
Old Jan 20, 2025 | 11:45 AM
  #32082  
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez
Biden preemptively pardoning Anthony Fauci, who has been accused of no crime, was an interesting touch.




Old Jan 20, 2025 | 12:52 PM
  #32083  
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Is the Biden Administration saying they are completely aware and permissive of some legal wrongdoing by an administrative official at a government agency? I wonder just what they were aware of? And I wonder just what they gave permission to do? Looks like if Fauci gets a pardon then there will be other people above that food chain that would likely need one.
Old Jan 20, 2025 | 12:59 PM
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Last one to Panama is a rotten egg.
Old Jan 20, 2025 | 12:59 PM
  #32085  
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So Biden issued blanket pardons for every member of his family as he was leaving the White House. What an odd thing to do.

One of the committee chairmen called it an outright admission of corruption.
Old Jan 20, 2025 | 01:06 PM
  #32086  
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Originally Posted by sixshooter
So Biden issued blanket pardons for every member of his family as he was leaving the White House. What an odd thing to do.

One of the committee chairmen called it an outright admission of corruption.
On the bright side, the 5th Amendment is not available to them should they be called for questioning, so maybe some public humiliation for folks who deserve worse.
Old Jan 20, 2025 | 01:12 PM
  #32087  
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It's interesting that Biden also issued an unconditional blanket pardon to his whole immediate family just a few minutes before the crown was handed over to Trump.





Evidence that this is true, and not a fake news / photoshop job: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/20/u...ns-family.html
Old Jan 20, 2025 | 01:28 PM
  #32088  
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Originally Posted by sixshooter
So Biden issued blanket pardons for every member of his family as he was leaving the White House. What an odd thing to do.

One of the committee chairmen called it an outright admission of corruption.
How's that song go again?
" I see your true colors shining through ..."
Old Jan 20, 2025 | 02:36 PM
  #32089  
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Originally Posted by Braineack
Lol. A democrat pardoned a Cheney.

That's all you needed to know about the last 4 years.

Already getting juicy.
Anyone who is pardoned no longer has the protection of the 5th Amendment.
Old Jan 20, 2025 | 02:38 PM
  #32090  
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Lots of people gonna be triggered today. I've no doubt that Musk chose his words for that purpose.
Old Jan 20, 2025 | 03:21 PM
  #32091  
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Originally Posted by cordycord
Anyone who is pardoned no longer has the protection of the 5th Amendment.
I am fairly certain that constitutional protections cannot be nullified by executive fiat.



Old Jan 20, 2025 | 03:44 PM
  #32092  
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^^ Might want to look a little deeper into that certainty, Joe.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/politics/g...im/ar-AA1xw9RL

I've see legal commentary showing that one could lose protection against incriminating themself because there would be no consequential penalty at play due to the pardon, but that a person would not lose their right of refusal to incriminate themself against some new unrelated charges. Also, exemption from federal charges does not apply to state charges which could be brought.

Last edited by good2go; Jan 20, 2025 at 03:56 PM.
Old Jan 20, 2025 | 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez
I am fairly certain that constitutional protections cannot be nullified by executive fiat.
5th Amendment is self-incrimination. If you're being asked questions about an issue for which you've received a pardon, you can't clam up because even if you say you broke the law, you've already received a pardon. If it's about some new issue, you're absolutely right.





10 years ago JD Vance hadn't even written Hillbilly elegy.
Old Jan 20, 2025 | 04:23 PM
  #32094  
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Grok says:

Can a U.S. president pardon U.S. citizens that have not been convicted of a crime?
No, a U.S. president cannot pardon individuals who have not been convicted of a crime. The power to pardon under the U.S. Constitution is explicitly linked to offenses against the United States, which implies that there must be a legal acknowledgment of guilt or at least a charge for an offense. Article II, Section 2 of the Constitution grants the President the "Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment." This power is generally understood to apply post-conviction or after someone has been formally charged.
Therefore, without a conviction or at least an indictment, there is no legal basis for a pardon. However, presidents can issue pardons for offenses that have been committed but not yet prosecuted, as long as there is some acknowledgment of the crime, such as through an investigation or charges being filed.

Is a U.S. citizen who has been pardoned by the President subject to the 5th Amendment?

Yes, a U.S. citizen who has been pardoned by the President is still subject to the protections of the Fifth Amendment. The Fifth Amendment provides several protections, including the right against self-incrimination, which states that no person "shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself."
A presidential pardon forgives the individual for the crime for which they were convicted, removing any remaining penalties and restoring certain civil rights. However, it does not erase the fact that the crime was committed; it merely forgives it. Here's how this interacts with the Fifth Amendment:
  • Self-incrimination: Even after a pardon, a person might still be compelled to testify in other matters where their testimony could lead to incrimination for other crimes or related activities not covered by the pardon. The Fifth Amendment protection against self-incrimination remains applicable.
  • Double Jeopardy: A pardon does not mean the person can be retried for the same offense due to the Double Jeopardy clause in the Fifth Amendment, which protects against being tried twice for the same offense. However, if new crimes are discovered or if the pardon does not explicitly cover all aspects of the original charges, this protection might not apply to those new or separate charges.
  • Due Process: The due process protections of the Fifth Amendment continue to apply to pardoned individuals in any future legal proceedings, ensuring fair treatment under the law.
In summary, a pardon does not remove one's constitutional rights, including those under the Fifth Amendment. It only addresses the punishment for the specific crime for which the pardon was granted. Therefore, a pardoned individual retains all the protections the Fifth Amendment affords in any new or ongoing legal contexts.




Old Jan 20, 2025 | 07:14 PM
  #32095  
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez
I am fairly certain that constitutional protections cannot be nullified by executive fiat.


Or....



Old Jan 20, 2025 | 09:58 PM
  #32096  
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I don’t know - I think it’s more of a Clint Eastwood “man with no name” look - “Get 3 coffins ready.”
Old Jan 21, 2025 | 08:52 AM
  #32097  
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Originally Posted by good2go
^^ Might want to look a little deeper into that certainty, Joe.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/politics/g...im/ar-AA1xw9RL
From the bio of Gabrielle M. Etzel, the author of that article:

Gabrielle M. Etzel is the healthcare policy reporter for the Washington Examiner. Prior to joining the Washington Examiner, she served as a staff reporter at Campus Reform and as a freelance writer. After graduating from Grove City College, Etzel earned her master's in public policy and administration from Baylor University, where she conducted research on domestic sex trafficking. In her free time, Etzel enjoys being with her family in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.


None of that leads me to conclude that she is an expert on Constitutional Law.
Old Jan 21, 2025 | 09:03 AM
  #32098  
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is there even precedent?



Old Jan 21, 2025 | 09:03 AM
  #32099  
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Originally Posted by cordycord
5th Amendment is self-incrimination. If you're being asked questions about an issue for which you've received a pardon, you can't clam up because even if you say you broke the law, you've already received a pardon.
(followed shortly by)

Originally Posted by cordycord
Is a U.S. citizen who has been pardoned by the President subject to the 5th Amendment?
Yes, a U.S. citizen who has been pardoned by the President is still subject to the protections of the Fifth Amendment. The Fifth Amendment provides several protections, including the right against self-incrimination, which states that no person "shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself."
A presidential pardon forgives the individual for the crime for which they were convicted, removing any remaining penalties and restoring certain civil rights. However, it does not erase the fact that the crime was committed; it merely forgives it. Here's how this interacts with the Fifth Amendment:
  • Self-incrimination: Even after a pardon, a person might still be compelled to testify in other matters where their testimony could lead to incrimination for other crimes or related activities not covered by the pardon. The Fifth Amendment protection against self-incrimination remains applicable.
  • Double Jeopardy: A pardon does not mean the person can be retried for the same offense due to the Double Jeopardy clause in the Fifth Amendment, which protects against being tried twice for the same offense. However, if new crimes are discovered or if the pardon does not explicitly cover all aspects of the original charges, this protection might not apply to those new or separate charges.
  • Due Process: The due process protections of the Fifth Amendment continue to apply to pardoned individuals in any future legal proceedings, ensuring fair treatment under the law.
In summary, a pardon does not remove one's constitutional rights, including those under the Fifth Amendment. It only addresses the punishment for the specific crime for which the pardon was granted. Therefore, a pardoned individual retains all the protections the Fifth Amendment affords in any new or ongoing legal contexts.

I... I honestly cannot figure out what you are trying to say here.

The 5th Amendment covers a lot of protections, the most substantive of which are summarized in the "Grok says" paragraphs which you pasted in.

There is no provision for the limitation or revocation of those protections, least of all solely by the actions of the president.




Old Jan 21, 2025 | 12:18 PM
  #32100  
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Nice work, if you can find it.



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