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Old 03-01-2013, 01:42 AM   #401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post

Just wait until 18psi shows up here haha

Dann
And then what?

Congrats on hitting the number you were aiming for.

Milk this as hard and as long as you can, I know you're already doing it LOL

What # was ALLOFIT?
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Old 03-01-2013, 01:43 AM   #402
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says fuel type on the dyno... did you not read the argument thread about e85? lol
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Old 03-01-2013, 01:45 AM   #403
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Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
And then what?

Congrats on hitting the number you were aiming for.

Milk this as hard and as long as you can, I know you're already doing it LOL

What # was ALLOFIT?
Yeah I agree no nose rubbing needed. You did a nice job. I believe he's saying that though because of the previous e85 discussion and I think he was hoping for 325-330
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Old 03-01-2013, 01:47 AM   #404
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He kept arguing that he'd see huge gains and all kinda other stuff.

Then made 25hp more on a super baller tubular setup vs a basic log "basically the worst setup in existence" as he put it.

I mean I don't think anyone's minds are blown here.

I do have to give props for delivering what was promised though. And I can't say the 20 pages haven't been amusing lol

I'm real curious what the end result boost pressure was, and what the gains were per-psi from say 17 to whatever it took
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Old 03-01-2013, 02:28 AM   #405
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Whats wrong with 25 extra horses out of just pipework?
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Old 03-01-2013, 02:55 AM   #406
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Why is it spooling so slow?
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Old 03-01-2013, 03:10 AM   #407
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No idea, when i get the good dyno sheet Ill open a thread to discuss it. it makes all the mid and high torque we could have dreamed before but its behind the log by 1.5 to 2psi on the way to 4000rpm. Then the tubular just doesnt stop gaining torque and shoots past for an extra 100rw ft lb.


Dann
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Old 03-01-2013, 03:33 AM   #408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triple88a View Post
Whats wrong with 25 extra horses out of just pipework?
The last setup made 292 when all was said and done. Its 297 run was pushing it tune wise in the dyno owners opinion so I backed it off a little.

This made 325.x and we decided it was good enough.

Its more like 33 more hp , which is 10%.

People sure werent expecting 10%.

All of it was 22psi.

Dann

Last edited by nitrodann; 03-01-2013 at 04:29 AM.
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Old 03-01-2013, 06:24 AM   #409
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Also check this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
You serious?

I have been tinkering with e85 for years now. Tuning subarus and evos, and a few miatas too (including my own).

I'm not even discussing its energy output with you, so I'm not denying or agreeing with that statement because frankly it has nothing to do with this.

I'm saying your turbo is TAPPED OUT at 300. IF you still don't understand what me, brain, and savington are saying, I don't think there's even a point in arguing something so retarded.



You can call me an idiot, but I challenge you to prove us wrong.

PS: Sav has tuned more miatas than most of us put together. Ask him if you don't believe me.
In this thread I got 22 neg props, and you got given quite a few "+ props" along with the others who said it couldnt be done.



Dann
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Old 03-01-2013, 06:44 AM   #410
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NICE DANN!!!

Thats a good calling out right there!

and no humble pie.....shithouse 18psi.

(Dann, call him an idiot.....he asked you to! )

Last edited by mx5-kiwi; 03-01-2013 at 06:46 AM. Reason: Indignation!
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:14 AM   #411
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300rwhp dynojet 300 hp aus unknown correction factor dyno. The last dyno had what, a .63CF?

congrats on the best 1.6L "record" at 10psi as well, that beats a lot of 1.8Ls as well.

Cant wait to see the chart with actual numbers and datapoints.



Why wouldn't they let you use your own tuning laptop? that's odd. Did you finally use one with an updated version of TS so you could D/L the correct firmware?

Quote:
Originally Posted by full_tilt_boogie View Post
why is it spooling so slow?
1.6l.

Last edited by Braineack; 03-01-2013 at 09:29 AM.
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Old 03-01-2013, 10:19 AM   #412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triple88a View Post
Whats wrong with 25 extra horses out of just pipework?
Nothing. He made 28hp more than over what he called "the worst setup ever" by revising and improving basically everything in the setup and optimizing flow.

Its nothing bad. Its also nothing groundbreaking. We're talking about $1,500+ worth of hotside parts, a built engine, and a turbo that is being pushed to its physical limits to make 28hp more on an unknown dyno.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Full_Tilt_Boogie View Post
Why is it spooling so slow?
because its 1.fail

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post
The last setup made 292 when all was said and done. Its 297 run was pushing it tune wise in the dyno owners opinion so I backed it off a little.

This made 325.x and we decided it was good enough.

Its more like 33 more hp , which is 10%.

People sure werent expecting 10%.

All of it was 22psi.

Dann
You can arrange the numbers any way you like if the extra 8 hp will make you sleep at night

At the end of the day you're making a couple hp more than a stock 1.8 on pump gas on like 15psi.

BUT,
As already stated: I give you props for actually doing this, and congratulate you for not massively failing and making less power or something lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post
Also check this.
In this thread I got 22 neg props, and you got given quite a few "+ props" along with the others who said it couldnt be done.



Dann
I love your selective quoting. I'll go back and re-quote all the bs you claimed when I'm bored Then we'll really "compare notes".

Right: you said you'd make a lot more power due to e85. You ended up improving every single part of the setup, and running a ton of boost (way more than the turbo was designed to handle) and making 28hp more. What does this prove?

I guess I don't understand, please clarify: was it that we said your turbo is tapped out at 300, and you made 325 by running the turbo off its compressor chart altogether?

Is that why you're screaming: " I TOLD YOU, OMGZZZZ I TOLD YOU I TOLD YOU CHYEAHHHHH" ?

BTW: is this the same dyno as before? Was the same cf used?

Lastly: didn't you claim you could hit 350whp? Or should I go re-read all your posts from before?


Quote:
Originally Posted by mx5-kiwi View Post
NICE DANN!!!

Thats a good calling out right there!

and no humble pie.....shithouse 18psi.

(Dann, call him an idiot.....he asked you to! )
Care to clarify, or are you just stirring the pot like a submissive bottom bystander?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
300rwhp dynojet 300 hp aus unknown correction factor dyno. The last dyno had what, a .63CF?

congrats on the best 1.6L "record" at 10psi as well, that beats a lot of 1.8Ls as well.

Cant wait to see the chart with actual numbers and datapoints.
But bro,

HE TOLD US. HE TOLD ALL OF US. He wins. Basically we said his turbo is tapped out at 300, so anything past 301 means SWEET VICTORY



LOL



But seriously: congrats Dan. You got determination, and +Props to you for actually delivering on the dyno
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Old 03-01-2013, 10:51 AM   #413
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I'm bored, lets do this thing:


Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
I have no idea how you come to the conclusion that "the turbo has crazy potential". I'm not saying its a bad turbo, because its a great daily driver turbo, but: Its a built motor running e85, even if you pumped hot lava into the engine it would still make that power. Exhaust backpressure will choke up any turbo the same way. Show us the plot if you want people to be impressed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post
I dont want people to be impressed, the boost doesnt come on until like 4000rpm its pathetic.

And I dont think it has crazy potential, Im just saying that it has some potential, where as a few people, some right here in this thread, write it off past 220whp.

This car is a 1.6L, so its got a crap head, it has a stock IM, it has a log manifold, and a horrible horrible downpipe AND a 2.5" exhaust and yet its making 300whp (boost-ALL OF IT). I am interested to hear peoples opinion in what potential it has with a long runner tubular manifold and a 3.5" exhaust. And then the IM will come.

I think that it has 350whp in it on E85, which is what the flow map suggests.

Dann
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post
Either way the findings here show that the flow maps are spot on and that 300-ish is what a 2560 will flow on premium. So Im hoping for 350 on E85.

Would that be some sort of record?

Also we will find out how far the stock 1.6L IM will go with stock TB. 300 so far.

Dann
Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
i dont see it happening. that turbo is TAPPED out.

Like it got hit with the Tranny Press.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post
True on gasoline. But E85 has 12% more torque potential and that's 36hp alone at this rate. 310+36 is dangerously close to 350hp.

Dann
Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
but its well outside it's efficency range, e85 be damned.

it's all about the floooooooooooow.

look at the difference between 14psi and 17psi. 10hp, but gobs of midrange torque...the thing is tapppppped out.

unless you fit it in a .86 a/r housing, i dont see it happening; just a lot of hot air.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
lol yeah, I don't think you get how this works man: e85 doesn't magically add flow capacity to your turbo. Once its tapped out, its tapped out. You'll squeeze maybe a couple more hp by running insane timing, but once you're off the maps, you're pretty much done
Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
especially since both the compressor AND turbines are tapped out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
+1
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post
I think you have forgotten that the energy potential of E85 at stoich is 12% greater than gasoline.

This car went from 255rwhp to 280 just by switching to E85 without adding any more boost.

If 310whp can be done on petrol 340 can definately be done on E85 on the same setup.

Dann
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
lol ok try it

lolol
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post
I cannot believe you genuinely dont believe that E85 has a higher energy output than petrol at stoich. You played with E85 before? Come on 18, you are clevererer than this.

Dann
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
You serious?

I have been tinkering with e85 for years now. Tuning subarus and evos, and a few miatas too (including my own).

I'm not even discussing its energy output with you, so I'm not denying or agreeing with that statement because frankly it has nothing to do with this.

I'm saying your turbo is TAPPED OUT at 300. This has nothing to do with e85 and everything to do with your turbo and setup. IF you still don't understand what me, brain, and savington are saying, I don't think there's even a point in arguing something so retarded.

if you had a well breathing exhaust, good manifold, and spiked the timing to kingdom come, you'd STILL fall short of a true 350whp on a 1.6 with a 2560.

You can call me an idiot, but I challenge you to prove us wrong.

PS: Sav has tuned more miatas than most of us put together. Ask him if you don't believe me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post
I do challenge you and will build it in the coming month or 2.

It doesnt matter what the turbo will make on one fuel if another fuel has a higher energy output. Flow maps are in airflow, not horsepower, and without knowing the efficiency of the cumbustion chamber (lol, rubbish) and the specific energy output of the fuel theres no way to convert flow to power which is what you are trying to do.

Dann
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post
Energy output of fuel has nothing to do with power output of engine..

Dann
Quote:
Originally Posted by krissetsfire View Post
the 2560 is in my opinion the best turbo for .63 housing. the 2860 is not a bad turbo but it's also generally a .63 housing and if the 2560 is going to limit the flow then the 2860 isn't really going to benefit much anyway except slow spool a bit....... unless you get a 2860 .82 housing but at that point you may as well get a 2871. 2560 is best for non built motor imo. I know many people have used 2860's but I would never snag one over the other 2 options i listed unless it was a better financial choice.

e85 won't EVER get a 2560 to 350. ever. i don't care if it has more potential.

to answer the op: best advice was already given. you seemed to have conceded to it. read a lot and do everything right the first time. don't skimp and piece everything together correctly. the best thing to start with is an ecu not a turbo kit. understanding tuning and the application of the turbo is really the most important thing to having a fun reliable car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post
You guys who think E85 doesn't increase HP are all cute.

Let's break this down real easy.

A turbo can flow X amount of air on an optimized set up.
E85 produces at least 10% more torque across the entire rev range th9an gasoline.
A few cars with nice manifolds and 3" exhaust have made over 300whp on gas.

300 x 1.1=330

So at least 330 is achievable.
E85 doesn't need more airflow to make more power, that's why it works on n/a engines too. And dot start with the 'its only good for turbo' arguments otherwise alcohol fuels wouldn't be banned in racing classes that are n/a only.

Either way you should be encouraging me to try it. You only have knowledge to gain either way.

And no I won't go to carbies k thx bi.

Dann
Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
truth.

no one said that. What we said was, once the turbo is done outputting mass air flow efficiently, there is no power to be gained. The extra bump in power the E85 can give will be there until the turbo is tapped out...where it cant overcome the inefficient hot air being digested and turbine restriction from too much exhaust gasses through a too small turbine outlet.

there will be gains throughout the low and mid range for sure, but you wont see any appreciable bump in peak output.

i tested this in a my feeble brain and the results held true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post
You suggest that the combined flow of the turbine and wastegate are unable to flow over 310 whp? If that's the case surely a ported wastegate or external will fix allow the setup to make 350.

Dann
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
I seriously hope you are trolling or something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by krissetsfire View Post
So if the turbo is flowing 100% capacity then how is e85 going to magically allow it to operate an extra 16%? Where exactly is it gaining this power? magical e85 power land? Do you realize that in order for a power increase you have to have an increase in flow? the crank can't turn any harder or faster unless it can expel the exhaust and get more air/fuel in the chamber.. increasing spark/timing etc... the simple fact is that only x amount of exhaust can pass through the turbo at a time and the variable x has been met already. regardless of the fuel type. e85 will have the same diminishing returns as regular gas as the turbo becomes less efficient. power gain yes but as the boost goes up hp per psi will go down just like every other fuel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post
Gas has 35MJ/L potential energy when burned.

E85 has 25.5MJ/L


You run E85 over 51% richer that you run Gasoline.

25.5 x 1.51 = 38.64

38.64/35= 1.104

Or 110.4% of the total energy output of gas, using all numbers on the E85 side rounded down.

The fuel simply produces more, hotter exhaust gas, which is able to push the piston down harder.

Tell me do you guys believe that doing a nitromethane conversion wont improve power 1hp? Im sure you dont believe that because thats silly.

E85 produces the same torque (and hence power) increase on n/a engines in the same way methanol does.

Theres no extra airflow in these n/a engines to make more power so how dus it wurk? More MJ of energy output per combustion cycle.

The car doesnt need extra airflow into the engine because E85 has an oxygen molecule in its chemical makeup just ready to help burn the fuel (which is why stoich ratio is in the 9's not 14.7). So the fuel itself adds some oxygen, to stay at stoich the tuner adds more fuel than on gas, and total sum energy output is increased.

I cannot believe I have to type this.

Anyways the car has to be able to get rid of those extra exhaust gases without hitting the rear housing, downpipe, and exhausts flow limit.

So having said all that you guys must believe that a 2560 cannot flow 350whp worth of exhaust gas no matter what.

Solving that problem if it is one is porting the exhaust housing and running an external wastegate.

Either way I get the car Monday and the work will begin and Ill post results.

Dann
For anyone that wants to read more of this comedy gold, look up the thread lol
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Old 03-01-2013, 10:53 AM   #414
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18psi - Just say "good job" and let the kid have his moment in the sun.
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Old 03-01-2013, 10:57 AM   #415
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what was the peak torque?


and when you get a print out, can you can another on top of the last plot?
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Old 03-01-2013, 10:59 AM   #416
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Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
18psi - Just say "good job" and let the kid have his moment in the sun.
I did.

Like 4 times now.

And again, for the 5th time:


GOOD JOB DANN.

(and I really mean that)
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:24 PM   #417
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Since this was relevant to e85 It would have made more sense to do a pull on normal gas and then e85. You got a 10% increase from a completely new setup as 18psi mentioned. not 10% from e85.

Still waiting for more data like Brain said.
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Old 03-01-2013, 03:25 PM   #418
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Quote:
GOOD JOB DANN.

(and I really mean that)
and you have done nothing EXCEPT throw in as many BUT's as you can....in fact you spent 20 mins dredging up all the quotes you could find.....

how about this one...?

Come on, you said tapped out at 300 and he went significantly higher in a motor with huge diminishing returns.....

Get off your self righteous soap box and stop trying to qualify his achievement.

You might call this "stirring the pot like a submissive bottom bystander?" (good one by the way, not quite in hustlers homo erotic league, but pretty good none the less )

But I call it the defending of a guy who is doing his best to learn, push his own knowledge/development AND (more importantly) actually put in practice what he thinks/learns as he goes. And how old is he...?

On a forum none the less!!! (is he crazy? he could just talk **** like 90% of the foruming world).

In his enthusiasm and vigour to get things happening and root out knowledge, he may have overstated a few things but all in all he got close to his target, proved you absolutely wrong in the process and is probably gearing up for his next project.... so stop being butt hurt, wipe up the dribble he left in your behind and accept he did good!

FULL credit.

P.S - sorry Dann, thats as much support as I can publicly give without it appearing more homo erotic than I care to on an mx5/miata forum
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Old 03-01-2013, 03:49 PM   #419
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mx5-kiwi View Post
and you have done nothing EXCEPT throw in as many BUT's as you can....in fact you spent 20 mins dredging up all the quotes you could find.....

how about this one...?

Come on, you said tapped out at 300 and he went significantly higher in a motor with huge diminishing returns.....

Get off your self righteous soap box and stop trying to qualify his achievement.

You might call this "stirring the pot like a submissive bottom bystander?" (good one by the way, not quite in hustlers homo erotic league, but pretty good none the less )

But I call it the defending of a guy who is doing his best to learn, push his own knowledge/development AND (more importantly) actually put in practice what he thinks/learns as he goes. And how old is he...?

On a forum none the less!!! (is he crazy? he could just talk **** like 90% of the foruming world).

In his enthusiasm and vigour to get things happening and root out knowledge, he may have overstated a few things but all in all he got close to his target, proved you absolutely wrong in the process and is probably gearing up for his next project.... so stop being butt hurt, wipe up the dribble he left in your behind and accept he did good!

FULL credit.

P.S - sorry Dann, thats as much support as I can publicly give without it appearing more homo erotic than I care to on an mx5/miata forum


Are you retarded?

1st off: please show me where I said "but" repeatedly or as you so ignorantly put it "used nothing but butts"

2nd: he overstated things in vigour, and I understated because I'm I'm butt hurt? Do you even realize how retarded and hypocritical you sound right now? HAHHAHA

3rd: If you take his nuts out of your mouth long enough to actually read this thread, you'll realize that you'll have to come up with some of your own, legitimate, information to argue with, and if you're defending someone, you better be mentally capable of understanding the conversation taking place.

I could go on, but I'd rather just quote your own post for blatant stupidity and not waste time on you.

He said 350 then changed it to 325. Then he hit exactly 325. Hid dyno plot doens't make sense, because it looks like a gt30r plot holding power and torque like no other miata (besides EFR equipped ones) does on much larger turbos, let alone a gt2560 on stock many/head.

So we want to see a real plot. We want to see more info. Dann gets super cocky then super humble then super cocky again and I want to make sure he has something to be cocky about.

Stop being such a blind and blatant nutswinger. Learn to think on your own. Question things that don't make sense. Don't just perform fellatio on the 1st person that throws up a chart and worship the ground he stands on. Credit on this forum will always be given where it is due.

In the end it will only benefit you. Move along.
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Old 03-01-2013, 03:58 PM   #420
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I'm just waiting to crunch some numbers...

https://www.miataturbo.net/engine-pe...27/#post773205
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