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Old 11-12-2012, 04:56 PM   #541
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And suddenly Joe realizes why we are so far in debt.
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Old 11-12-2012, 04:59 PM   #542
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Outsider? LOL

I think the term that sums us up is: "cheapass"

I just bought my wife a 2010 Prius. Top of the line, bla bla bla.
When I opened the glove box and found the original sticker, and it was 33,xxx I was floored, since just 2 years later I paid well less than half for it. Still got uber low miles, still got the NEW CAR smell, etc.



But back on topic:

Ryan, the engine I posted is actually a 2.0 OEM from a legacy that "might" (cross your fingers) make it into a brz some day. Vs all custom kits the modders are putting out these days in a crazy scramble to get their name known in the brz/frs world that is exploding nowadays.........first on the scene type bs.......this is why I won't even consider one for at least nother 2-3 years. Let these jokers settle down a bit and sort stuff out
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:06 PM   #543
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Joe - Take your used Porsche comparisons and get out of this thread about the FR-S. I mean, why would I pay that much for a Porsche, when I can get a C5 Corvette and wipe the floor with the Porsche in terms of fuel economy, straight line speed with some modifications, cost of maintenance, and still have the utility of a large hatch area?

It's a fruitless point of argument.


Now, NC vs FR-S is a more reasonable discussion to have in this thread. That's where things like appearance, coupe platform, theoretically useable (short-term) back seats, etc. come in to play.
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:09 PM   #544
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Originally Posted by thenuge26 View Post
And suddenly Joe realizes why we are so far in debt.
I realize *HOW* we are so far in debt.

But not why.
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:22 PM   #545
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This is going to sound crazy, but lately I've been eyeing the '13 Hyundai Genesis 2.0T R-Spec as a contender to the brz/frs. I gotta say, with the new setup producing 274/275, torque everywhere, and 3400lb weight (that can easily be "dieted" to lose at least 3-400lbs), and I'm sure bolt ons and tune will pick up a ton of power/torque, might be worth considering.

I know I know, its probably a wacky thought, but doesn't look like it at 1st glance
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:23 PM   #546
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Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
Joe - Take your used Porsche comparisons and get out of this thread about the FR-S.
Ok, that's fair. I am thread-jacking. Last post on the subject.


Quote:
I mean, why would I pay that much for a Porsche, when I can get a C5 Corvette and wipe the floor with the Porsche in terms of fuel economy, straight line speed with some modifications, cost of maintenance, and still have the utility of a large hatch area?
Good taste?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
Now, NC vs FR-S is a more reasonable discussion to have in this thread. That's where things like appearance, coupe platform, theoretically useable (short-term) back seats, etc. come in to play.
Which is kind of where I started.

I can't speak to appearance. To me, the NC.5 is every bit as ugly as the BRZ-S.

Back seats are hard to place here. If I actually needed useful back seats in a new vehicle of approximately this class, and I had recently suffered a major head injury which caused me to want to purchase a new car, I'd...

well...

I just realized that there aren't any other vehicles in this class.


Ok, I think you win.



(Maybe the BMW 128i.)
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:30 PM   #547
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This is going to sound crazy, but lately I've been eyeing the '13 Hyundai Genesis 2.0T R-Spec as a contender to the brz/frs. I gotta say, with the new setup producing 274/275, torque everywhere, and 3400lb weight (that can easily be "dieted" to lose at least 3-400lbs), and I'm sure bolt ons and tune will pick up a ton of power/torque, might be worth considering.
I think the Genesis is a reasonable comparison, but more fitting in the same class as a Camaro or Mustang.

What I am really curious about is how you figure that you can "easily" lose 300 to 400 pounds in that car? Caveat: since we are talking newer cars that are $25k+ and likely to be only vehicles and/or under warranty, I'm assuming things like ditching carpets, power windows and air conditioning are not included.

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I just realized that there aren't any other vehicles in this class.


Ok, I think you win.



(Maybe the BMW 128i.)
A) Quoted for posterity.

B) The 128i is a $30k+ car. Not totally out of the neighborhood, but a good 20% over the base FR-S. With included factory maintenance, that does even some of that cost comparison.

The 128i is about 400 pounds heavier. Interestingly, with 230 BHP and 3200 pounds, its weight to power ratio is about comparable to the FR-S at 200 and 2800, respectively. The Bimmer does have quite a few more torques, though.
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:31 PM   #548
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I bought my Lexus new because the damn thing depreciates excessively slowly. 15,000 miles would have only saved me like $5000 or something stupid.

I also wanted to give myself a new present
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:36 PM   #549
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Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
I think the Genesis is a reasonable comparison, but more fitting in the same class as a Camaro or Mustang.

What I am really curious about is how you figure that you can "easily" lose 300 to 400 pounds in that car? Caveat: since we are talking newer cars that are $25k+ and likely to be only vehicles and/or under warranty, I'm assuming things like ditching carpets, power windows and air conditioning are not included.
lighter wheels
lighter suspension components (alum bodied coilovers, etc)
lighter seats

stuff like that. just a guess

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I bought my Lexus new because the damn thing depreciates excessively slowly. 15,000 miles would have only saved me like $5000 or something stupid.

I also wanted to give myself a new present
Not everyone here ***** hard enough to think $5,000 is stupid cheap to depreciate in basically a year.

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Old 11-12-2012, 05:36 PM   #550
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This is a short-term phenomenon which is often seen during the first year or two following the release of a vehicle which is highly sought-after and limited in supply.
Remember the year 1989 with the 1990 model Miata? I still have the Road and Track magazine that talked about that happening with the Miata.

I bought my current Miata brand new in 95 (I traded my 90 Miata that I bought new). If you have a tendency to hold on to your car for a long time, what is the big deal?

The act of modifing a new or newer car is not so bad either. Everything is so clean, bolts are easy to loosen, no broken harness connectors. It is quite a pleasant experience.
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:38 PM   #551
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. Everything is so clean, bolts are easy to loosen, no broken harness connectors. It is quite a pleasant experience.
+1

Its truly a hoot working on new cars.
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:45 PM   #552
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128i is pretty big compared to the NC and FR-Z isn't it? Google says 4+ inches longer wheelbase, as well as heavier. Same with the Genensis. This image really stuck with me. I didn't realize how small the Toyubaru was until I saw this.



Fastback NC indeed.
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:46 PM   #553
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Yeah, seeing that pic (or seeing one in person) really drives the size comparo home
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:49 PM   #554
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thenuge26 View Post
128i is pretty big compared to the NC and FR-Z isn't it? Google says 4+ inches longer wheelbase, as well as heavier. Same with the Genensis. This image really stuck with me. I didn't realize how small the Toyubaru was until I saw this.



Fastback NC indeed.
Wow! I love that comparison.
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Old 11-12-2012, 06:00 PM   #555
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Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
lighter wheels
lighter suspension components (alum bodied coilovers, etc)
lighter seats

stuff like that. just a guess
Ok, so that amounts for maybe 75 lbs.

And the rest of it?



Quote:
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B) The 128i is a $30k+ car. Not totally out of the neighborhood, but a good 20% over the base FR-S. With included factory maintenance, that does even some of that cost comparison.
Yeah, the 128i is slightly more expensive. But I'm taking into consideration a couple of key factors here.

1: As a general rule, the 128i will hold its resale value better. A quick perusal of Autotrader shows that 2008 model 128i Coupes are averaging about $22-$23k, which is a discount of 28% versus the 2013 MSRP. By comparison, a non-WRX Imprezza hatchback of '08 vintage can be had for $9-11k, versus $18.4k MSRP for 2013, a drop of around 45%. I understand that the secondary market for the BRZ-S is a tad wonky right now, but give it a few years for the luster to wear off. It's never going to be a WRX STi.

2: The 128i does not come from the factory with a pre-installed backwards baseball hat mounted just above the driver.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
The Bimmer does have quite a few more torques, though.
When did you become Jeremy Clarkson?

In general, the 128i is just a better car. It's faster, it's not significantly more expensive, and it projects an image other than "I pwn n00bz."



Quote:
Originally Posted by miata2fast View Post
Remember the year 1989 with the 1990 model Miata? I still have the Road and Track magazine that talked about that happening with the Miata.
Yeah, that's kind of what I was alluding to. Dealers were selling new NAs for 50% above sticker when they first came out, and people were actually scalping them like concert tickets. That did not last.



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I bought my Lexus new because the damn thing depreciates excessively slowly. 15,000 miles would have only saved me like $5000 or something stupid.
Go away. Your Camry is even less relevant to this thread than my Beetle was.

Last edited by Joe Perez; 11-12-2012 at 06:11 PM.
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Old 11-12-2012, 06:20 PM   #556
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I also bought my Camry because it is a Toyota.

Winning.

The 135i that I drove was an awesome car. Lots and lots of fun. I felt totally comfortable whoring on it in the hilly turns straight off the dealer lot. I bet the M coupe is delightful.

135i with the JB4 would be ****. 335i was like land whale in comparison
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Old 11-12-2012, 06:30 PM   #557
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While I have heard this argument many times, I can't quite accept this line of reasoning. I understand that auto-repair shops charge money for car repair, but I have never seen any data to support the conclusion that the total cost of ownership for a typical used car of a reasonable age exceeds that of a new car over any reasonable time-frame.
You're thinking locally, as am I. There's no such thing as a cheap 20 year old car around here. They are either A) long gone to the junkyard, B)sitting in a field someplace rotting away or C) restored "classic" cars, sold for many times their original price. Once in a while you get lucky, more often the uninformed just get screwed, not knowing what to look for.

The reason for this is simple. Salt and snow. Rust kills cars long before their time, hence the slang term - cancer. Sure, that 1999 truck only has 110k on the clock. But if it's spend it's life around here, the brake lines are shot. The gas lines are shot. Hell, chances are the gas tank and filler neck are shot, too. If the brakes have any life left, the parking brake cables have turned into one solid snake of rust. The floor pans may be gone as well. This assumes routine washing to remove the worst of the salt. Further along examples will have rusty springs, frames in danger of breaking and perforated trunks. Not uncommon for a relatively clean small car to have the spring perches rotted to the point of the car collapsing. Exhausts break before they should because the hangers rust off, and they can't support themselves.

So, $18-25k new, and don't worry about a thing for at least 3 years. Or, buy one 8 years old, and take it in at least twice a year for gas/brake lines, exhaust, parking brake, or some other rust induced failure. No, it's not an equal trade off, financially. But a lot of people pay big bucks for convenience, and not having to take a car in someplace is a huge deal for a lot of people. Remember, most people shudder at the thought of changing a tire, let alone real work. A lot of people get rich by charging people for things they are too lazy to do themselves.


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Heck, I'm just thinking about my own 22 year old car....
Convince me that a repair shop would have charged more for all of that than 2.5 years' worth of new car payments and new car comprehensive insurance payments.
Have you been to a shop? $100 an hour is pretty standard, and some of the things you mentioned are insanely expensive. All that body work? How many hours did you spend? I've known people to sell cars with bad paint for a loss, because a repaint was the value of the car, with labor. You have to look at it from a perspective of someone who can't or won't do things for themselves.

But no, it's not comparable on a simple monetary exchange. There are some things more valuable than money to some people. Most of my neighbors think I'm crazy to work on cars. Too much time, too much effort.


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How the hell did this happen?
I was once told that you know you're getting old when you can't imagine paying the prices for things that you used to buy. Welcome to the club, gramps.
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:05 PM   #558
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128i is pretty big compared to the NC and FR-Z isn't it? Google says 4+ inches longer wheelbase, as well as heavier. Same with the Genensis. This image really stuck with me. I didn't realize how small the Toyubaru was until I saw this.



Fastback NC indeed.
There is another great graphic in a relatively recent Road & Track or Motor Trend where they compared wildly different cars that had some common element. One of them was the FR-S and a Cayman and they were surprisingly similar in dimensions.

I can also say with confidence that it is easier to carry a set of track wheels and tires with you in the FR-S than it is in the Cayman.
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:53 PM   #559
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Having a factory warranty is worth more to me than what you would expect. I purchased a new Boss302 in April of 2011 for 42,000+ttl. I did 8-10 track days, 4 autox days, and a day at the drag strip hot lapping 12+ passes and ran a 12.6 bone stock on factory tires. A few of those track days were on 18x10's with full slicks. Left one set on for a week after a track day at TWS to troll Corpus. I went 150mph+ at least 100 times on and off the track, and have touched 170mph a few times on empty Texas highways. I clutch kicked 3rd maybe 100 times, half were roll races. It was probably stopped light raced maybe 70-80 times, majority were Camaro's and never lost, launching in 2nd gear at 6k.

Traded that car with 15,000 miles in September for 37.5. I feel like I got my monies worth. Sure I could have done most of that stuff in a 02-911, but I wouldn't have. So your comparrison also faulters on that aspect, Joe. I never had one problem with that car. But if I had popped that 15k motor, 5k trans, 1k diff, etc all would have been taken care of. I could leave work with my suit on, show up to the track and pop a tent, change clothes, run TTA all weekend, drive home Sunday night, go on an appoinment for work Monday morning. I would have never done 10% of that stuff in a 911 being scared to pop a trans/motor/rear end and be out $$. I dont want to discuss the morality of warranty on a track car, my opnion is they advertised the car as such...

I would love a 911, but would only feel really comfortable owning a new one under warranty which I can't do. I might be the exception to the rule, but I have a suspicion that others might also want a warranty for similar purposes. It sucks but I would only use a 10 year old 911 for balling around in. In your position I would probably own one in cash and use my savings as my warranty Lovely cars, I've drove a few in anger being an instructor for PCA.

I think in new car $$$ the FR-S offers an extremely good value to the spirited driver. I don't think you could pick anything nicer brand new for that mid 20's price point. One funny but true point is that you could drive one for 6+ months and sell it for more than you paid for it. Sounds like an exceptional value to me.

Last edited by jacob300zx; 11-12-2012 at 10:40 PM.
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Old 11-13-2012, 01:48 AM   #560
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Yah. I have run my IS-F up to 160+ many a time and not given a ****. I also dragged it as hard as I could blah blah blah. Nice not to worry.


Jacob. What did you trade in for?
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